Once saved always saved

[Voter]

From another thread:

Some of them "sin" without remorse due to the non-biblical notion of "once saved always saved.
-a-train

So right are you.  

AD, I'm curious what sins you think would cause a saved person to lose their salvation. Biblical support would be interesting as well if you care to. Thanks.

[Whitney]

I bet more than half the atheists on this board were once saved  

[AnimatedDirt]

Only one...the Unpardonable one.

And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

I believe in OSAS thinking, but just not in the same sense as some Christians translate/interpret the thought.  Some are of the thinking that once a person has been "saved", they are sealed forever without any chance of losing that salvation...INCLUDING CHOICE.  Furthermore, some would say that the John 3:16 text supports this and that if a person believes once in their life, that from that point on they are saved...no matter what they choose from that point on.  In fact, the belief goes so far as to say to say that one can be saved and live like hell and still be assured of salvation.  This is what I believe a-train is speaking about in that quote above.

I reject this OSAS on that line.  There are plenty of biblical proofs that one must remain in Christ to truly be saved.  See John 15:4-17, 24:13, Mark 13:13, 2 Timothy 2:19.  To name a few.

We've been discussing freewill in another thread.  To say we have freewill on one hand and then in the next breath promote the OSAS (as a-train suggests some believers hold) doctrine is to deny freewill.  If OSAS is true in that sense, then we really do not have freewill to unchoose God at our own whim and for God to deny us that freewill then also goes against what we say is His intention at creating such a being; that is a being given the complete ability to choose and unchoose.

[LARA]

Whitney wrote: I bet more than half the atheists on this board were once saved  

Yeah, in fact, the impressive magic of a blue Walmart kiddie pool was definitely another chink in the suspension of disbelief when I attended church. I guess Jesus loves plastic?

[Voter]

Only one...the Unpardonable one.

And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

I believe in OSAS thinking, but just not in the same sense as some Christians translate/interpret the thought.  Some are of the thinking that once a person has been "saved", they are sealed forever without any chance of losing that salvation...INCLUDING CHOICE.  Furthermore, some would say that the John 3:16 text supports this and that if a person believes once in their life, that from that point on they are saved...no matter what they choose from that point on.  In fact, the belief goes so far as to say to say that one can be saved and live like hell and still be assured of salvation.  This is what I believe a-train is speaking about in that quote above.

You seem to also believe that one can "live like hell and still be assured of salvation," as you only see one sin by which we can lose salvation. Can you clarify? What exactly is blasphemy against the Spirit in your interpretation?

We've been discussing freewill in another thread.  To say we have freewill on one hand and then in the next breath promote the OSAS (as a-train suggests some believers hold) doctrine is to deny freewill.  If OSAS is true in that sense, then we really do not have freewill to unchoose God at our own whim and for God to deny us that freewill then also goes against what we say is His intention at creating such a being; that is a being given the complete ability to choose and unchoose.

Yes, I do deny total free will. God is free to overrule man's will as he sees fit, and the Bible has examples of that. All that's necessary for purposes of the other thread is partial free will, and that partial free will need not be eternal.

[AnimatedDirt]

You seem to also believe that one can "live like hell and still be assured of salvation," as you only see one sin by which we can lose salvation. Can you clarify? What exactly is blasphemy against the Spirit in your interpretation?

Not quite.  I think you didn't go and read the texts I gave for what I base my stance on OSAS.  OSAS is true if and only if a believer keeps true to Christ/God, if he/she endures, perseveres, trusts.  There is no sin that can keep us from salvation, but one.  We are sinners in a state of sin, but through Christ our standing is perfect.  This does not mean we are able to freely sin, but rather have no fear of losing salvation should we slip/backslide in sin.  It is as I believe it was Martin Luther that said;

"A Christian is always a sinner, always a penitent, always right with God.".

Yes, I do deny total free will. God is free to overrule man's will as he sees fit, and the Bible has examples of that. All that's necessary for purposes of the other thread is partial free will, and that partial free will need not be eternal.

God is free to overrule...the question is whether God overrules man's freewill choice of life or death.  But that is a question better debated/discussed in it's own thread or in Why Did God Have to Make Evil where it seems to be coming up as part of that thread.

[Voter]

Not quite.  I think you didn't go and read the texts I gave for what I base my stance on OSAS.

No, I just read your own statements, and found them contradictory. If we can commit every sin but one without losing our salvation, it's reasonable to say we can "live like hell and still be assured of salvation." Yet, you say you disagree with that statement.

OSAS is true if and only if a believer keeps true to Christ/God, if he/she endures, perseveres, trusts.  There is no sin that can keep us from salvation, but one.

I'm sorry, but you really seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth here. Keeping true, enduring, persevering and trusting would seem to imply a life with little or no sin, yet you say only one sin can cost salvation.

Can you give more specific answers? Maybe some examples?

If you tell someone that they can lose their salvation, the natural question is, "How exactly would that happen?"

[AnimatedDirt]

No, I just read your own statements, and found them contradictory. If we can commit every sin but one without losing our salvation, it's reasonable to say we can "live like hell and still be assured of salvation." Yet, you say you disagree with that statement.

I suggest you read Romans, for starters along with the texts I gave a post or two up.

OSAS is true if and only if a believer keeps true to Christ/God, if he/she endures, perseveres, trusts.  There is no sin that can keep us from salvation, but one.

I'm sorry, but you really seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth here. Keeping true, enduring, persevering and trusting would seem to imply a life with little or no sin, yet you say only one sin can cost salvation.

Can you give more specific answers? Maybe some examples?

If you tell someone that they can lose their salvation, the natural question is, "How exactly would that happen?"

Were there any humans called righteous?  Were they literally?  In fact, some were murderers and/or adulterers yet they were called righeous before God.  Why?

Being a Christian is a battle...a battle between self and God, sinful nature and spiritual nature, good and evil.  It is a battle that is never won this side of salvation (humanly speaking) while we (Christians) have faith in the end result, we still struggle.  It has back and forth pulls.  The fact that there is a battle is "proof" of the heart's desire.  If there is no more battle, either the sinful nature has won, or Christ has come and we've been changed.

If one wants to lose their salvation, it is simple.  Openly deny Christ and live as such.   If one can freely choose God, likewise one can freely unchoose God.  It's a very simple concept.

[Voter]

I suggest you read Romans, for starters along with the texts I gave a post or two up.

I have read Romans, probably more times than you. I suggest you give a straight answer.

Being a Christian is a battle...a battle between self and God, sinful nature and spiritual nature, good and evil.  It is a battle that is never won this side of salvation (humanly speaking) while we (Christians) have faith in the end result, we still struggle.  It has back and forth pulls.  The fact that there is a battle is "proof" of the heart's desire.  If there is no more battle, either the sinful nature has won, or Christ has come and we've been changed.

If one wants to lose their salvation, it is simple.  Openly deny Christ and live as such.   If one can freely choose God, likewise one can freely unchoose God.  It's a very simple concept.

The question is, What if someone doesn't openly deny Christ, and in fact professes Christ, but lives what would generally be considered a sinful life? If it's a simple concept, give a straight answer.

[AnimatedDirt]

I have read Romans, probably more times than you. I suggest you give a straight answer.

I've given it straight.  The answer is what is in the heart.  Matthew 15:19, 6:21, 7:12

The question is, What if someone doesn't openly deny Christ, and in fact professes Christ, but lives what would generally be considered a sinful life? If it's a simple concept, give a straight answer.

I wrote "openly" figuring you might understand that to mean deny Christ physically and spiritually...whole-heartedly.  I guess I was wrong.  The fact of the matter is we as humans cannot discern the heart.  We can only look upon the outer manifestations of faith.  So we humanly judge on the outer while God judges the heart.  See Matthew 7:13-27

It's as simple as Matthew 7:21.

What we do is what is in our heart.  I cannot be more plain than that.