Atheism and happiness

[McQ]

Great stuff, sounds like we are getting somewhere.  Given the above, perhaps you'd indulge me one more question.

It's clear from your posts that there is a theme around, "Happiness for the atheist is defined by the individual, pursuing whatever potential sources of happiness he/she desires".  My question, then, is what comes first for the atheist:  the desire to do whatever you want, or the belief that there is no god?  It seems possible to me that, if the former was firmly established, it could dramatically influence whatever intellectual processes go into assessing the latter.  Thoughts?

Ditto to what Whitney said. I think you've misread or misinterpreted the answers. I hope not to suit a preconception you might have. Can't move forward until that is cleared up.

[Asmodean]

My question, then, is what comes first for the atheist:  the desire to do whatever you want, or the belief that there is no god?  It seems possible to me that, if the former was firmly established, it could dramatically influence whatever intellectual processes go into assessing the latter.  Thoughts?

It's not exactly like that...

I have a desire to do what I want and, at the same time and largely unrelated to it, I do not believe in gods. It's not that one of those thing comes first, since I, for one, manage to combine whating to do (or doing) something with being something. Kind of like walking while wearing a hat. One does not need to come before the other.

[Inevitable Droid]

Great stuff, sounds like we are getting somewhere.

Where, exactly?

My question, then, is what comes first for the atheist:  the desire to do whatever you want, or the belief that there is no god?

There's no causal link.  There isn't even meaningful correlation.  Everone, without exception, theist or not, desires to do whatever they want.  Meanwhile, no one sane and competent, theist or not, thinks they absolutely can, and get away scot free.  Consequences abound right here on the Earth.  No hell required.  Furthermore, all sorts of people, theist and otherwise, have achieved the capacity for empathy, which causes them to restrain themselves out of deference to the happiness of another.  Finally, plenty of people, theist or not, envision an ideal future and aspire to see it realized, which can drive a degree of restraint on behavior, consistent with the stipulations of the particular future contemplated.

[The Magic Pudding]

It's clear from your posts that there is a theme around, "Happiness for the atheist is defined by the individual, pursuing whatever potential sources of happiness he/she desires".  My question, then, is what comes first for the atheist:  the desire to do whatever you want, or the belief that there is no god?  It seems possible to me that, if the former was firmly established, it could dramatically influence whatever intellectual processes go into assessing the latter.  Thoughts?

I think the recognition that their is no basis for belief in a creator comes first.
The evidence presented for god is just a never ending circle of nonsense.
The history and hypocrisy of religious institutions showed me they weren't worthy to tell me what to do.
I do some things I want to do, and many I don't.  None of these things, besides lack of faith put me outside church guidelines.
But I don't think it is right to vilify gays, oppress woman and encourage rampant population growth.
I suppose I don't really fit those guidelines after all.

[Davin]

Great stuff, sounds like we are getting somewhere.  Given the above, perhaps you'd indulge me one more question.

It's clear from your posts that there is a theme around, "Happiness for the atheist is defined by the individual, pursuing whatever potential sources of happiness he/she desires".  My question, then, is what comes first for the atheist:  the desire to do whatever you want, or the belief that there is no god?  It seems possible to me that, if the former was firmly established, it could dramatically influence whatever intellectual processes go into assessing the latter.  Thoughts?

My main pursuit, "goal in life" if you will, is to understand reality. In order to ensure that I'm reaching that goal (set aside that it's impossible), I drop preconceptions and follow the evidence.

Happiness is something that occurs independent of my goal to understand reality. If I made my happiness dependent on a preconception, then I'll have only a few choices if that preconception turns out to not follow the evidence: I can ignore the evidence in order to maintain my happiness, I can accept the evidence and find some other way to be happy or I can give up on life altogether. I'm sure there are other options available, however I don't see the point in basing happiness on things that have not proven to be real. Also being that happiness is often independent of rationality, basing my happiness on unproven or even proven things doesn't make much sense. There are other ways to be happy.

My pursuit of happiness also occurs after I'm sure that my pursuit of it doesn't reasonably damage others.

[bandit4god]

Thanks, all!  This thread about Atheism and happiness is designed to gain some insight into what atheist hold to be their Ultimate Fact.  Let's take a second look at some of the quotes that have come before:
- "...my goal is whatever I want to do on a given day..."
- "...exploring and satiating my curiosity makes me very happy..."
- "...according to some theistic faiths I have lived in sin in my pursuit of happiness..."
- "...you are free to live your life in accordance with your own desires..."
- "...Atheists create their own goals..."
- "...people should do whatever makes them happy..."
- "...the meaning of life is whatever they choose it to be..."
- "...my life goal is to enjoy life and try to make life better for others while I'm at it..."

This may (or may not) point to the Atheist's Ultimate Fact as being "it's all about me."  If someone held the Ultimate Fact of their lives to be "it's all about me", any argument, debate, evidence, or theories to the contrary would simply bounce off (or incite anger, as this post may do!).

Some of you have contended that every living thing does whatever it wants to do.  Is it not possible for humans (alone of any other living thing) to deny themselves and hold an Ultimate Fact of "it's not all about me"?

[Ihateyoumike]

Thanks, all!  This thread about Atheism and happiness is designed to gain some insight into what atheist hold to be their Ultimate Fact.  Let's take a second look at some of the quotes that have come before:
- "...my goal is whatever I want to do on a given day..."
- "...exploring and satiating my curiosity makes me very happy..."
- "...according to some theistic faiths I have lived in sin in my pursuit of happiness..."
- "...you are free to live your life in accordance with your own desires..."
- "...Atheists create their own goals..."
- "...people should do whatever makes them happy..."
- "...the meaning of life is whatever they choose it to be..."
- "...my life goal is to enjoy life and try to make life better for others while I'm at it..."

This may (or may not) point to the Atheist's Ultimate Fact as being "it's all about me."  If someone held the Ultimate Fact of their lives to be "it's all about me", any argument, debate, evidence, or theories to the contrary would simply bounce off (or incite anger, as this post may do!).

Some of you have contended that every living thing does whatever it wants to do.  Is it not possible for humans (alone of any other living thing) to deny themselves and hold an Ultimate Fact of "it's not all about me"?

thanks for the chuckle. You're pretty good at quote mining to get your point across.
That being said, I'm looking forward to this getting torn apart. I'd do itmyself bit I'm just too damn sick the screen is getting blurry. It's a good thing your god decided to give us viruses. Wonder what the good behind that one is?

[Whitney]

Thanks, all!  This thread about Atheism and happiness is designed to gain some insight into what atheist hold to be their Ultimate Fact.  

That's funny for multiple reasons, two that should be obvious:

1.  The only thing atheist hold in common is that they don't believe in a deity (ie god).
2.  What makes one happy and what they may choose as a life does not necessarily correlate to determining what they consider to be "Ultimate Fact."  Goals and happiness are subjective; facts are objective.

This may (or may not) point to the Atheist's Ultimate Fact as being "it's all about me."

Of course it doesn't point to "it's all about me" many people responded specifically saying they cared about making life enjoyable for others too. I bet if you asked the parents here they'd say they are concerned for their kids happiness first. We aren't sociopaths...

If someone held the Ultimate Fact of their lives to be "it's all about me", any argument, debate, evidence, or theories to the contrary would simply bounce off (or incite anger, as this post may do!).

When you actually make an argument that holds any water we can discuss how we aren't listening to it or getting angry for no reason...at this point you are shoehorning what people have said into something that it doesn't fit; misrepresenting people in a manner that seems to be on purpose will upset anyone regardless of their beliefs.

Some of you have contended that every living thing does whatever it wants to do.  Is it not possible for humans (alone of any other living thing) to deny themselves and hold an Ultimate Fact of "it's not all about me"?

Actually, I contended that all living things do what they want to do but that humans are able to choose to perform actions for the sake of others, a cause, a belief etc and in doing so are still doing what they want to do.

Now, if you still think atheists; who share no common ground aside from non-belief in a deity and of many of which have said they incorporate others into their life goals and happiness are in fact holding an "it's all about me" attitude then you need to explain your view in a rational, logical, step by step manner because right now it doesn't make any sense.

[hackenslash]

Very well put, Whitney.

For my part, my atheism has no connection to happiness. It's simply the absence of a single class of belief. The things that make me happy are, I suspect, largely the same things that make just about everybody happy, and belief in a cosmic curtain-twitcher is not necessary for that.

[bandit4god]

I had the following hypotheses when I started this conversation, apologies that they have come across as unclear:
1)  Whether they acknowledge it or not, every individual has one or more foundational beliefs that acts as the invisible hand behind every thought and action
2)  This foundational belief could have an impact on one's assessment of the existence of God
3)  Atheists (and Theists) may have common elements between their foundational beliefs that may influence them to one opinion or another
4)  Beliefs about happiness give clues toward understanding one's foundational belief(s)

I'm hearing from you that three possibilities exists:
1)  Each person has a different thought on what drives happiness, and that thought is in no way correlative to beliefs about the existence of God (Whitney)
2)  Each person belongs to a class of beliefs about happiness (e.g., the "all about me" class, the "all about my kids" class, etc.) that is in no way correlative to beliefs about the existence of God
3)  Each person belongs to a class of beliefs about happiness that is correlative to beliefs about the existence of God

The rationale behind the 3rd is the following: if, for example, one was of a class of beliefs about happiness in which physical pleasure is paramount, that person could be considered less likely to believe in the existence of God.

[Inevitable Droid]

Thanks, all!  This thread about Atheism and happiness is designed to gain some insight into what atheist hold to be their Ultimate Fact.

The only Ultimate Fact is factuality itself.  Epistemology and ethics can inform one another but don't equate to one another.  Between what must be true and what must be done yawns a chasm, across which hangs suspended the bridge of desire.

This may (or may not) point to the Atheist's Ultimate Fact as being "it's all about me."

Desire can be grounded strictly in self, and often is, but doesn't have to be, and often isn't.  Interestingly, pronouns offer an orderly way of categorizing desires.  There are (1) me-centered desires; (2) he/she/they-centered desires, for example philanthropic ones; (3) we-centered desires, which would be institutional, for example patriotic ones; (4) you-centered desires, which would be deeply relational, sometimes with both sides equal in power, sometimes not.  Each category further sub-divides into two, since desires can be for the good or ill of whatever is being focused on, be it me, or he/she/they, or we, or you.  

In raising up sapients to be citizens, society would probably want to provide training and opportunities for practice at a young age in how to think from each of the four pronoun paradigms; and how to identify what's good and what's ill for whatever is being focused on; and how to find gratification in providing what's good, while retaining the option of providing what's ill should the situation warrant it - and how to identify when such is the case, which typically entails weighing the good of one pronoun paradigm against the conflicting good of another, such that one or the other must be denied its respective good.  We humans quickly and easily learn to find gratification in providing the good, not only to self but to the other three pronoun paradigms, if we're given half a chance through training and opportunities for practice.  The will to power can be profoundly satisfied by providing the good.  No one is mightier than the heroically effective philanthropist, or patriot, or sibling, or self-actualizer.  Why would society set such as all this in motion?  Because if each us locally receives the good, then all of us globally will be elevated in bounty.  It's common sense.  If all of us do as much good as we can, then all of us receive as much good as can be had.

Notice how I never had to invoke either God or morality.  Frankly, those concepts are obsolete.  All we need is common sense.

[McQ]

Thanks, all!  This thread about Atheism and happiness is designed to gain some insight into what atheist hold to be their Ultimate Fact.  Let's take a second look at some of the quotes that have come before:
- "...my goal is whatever I want to do on a given day..."
- "...exploring and satiating my curiosity makes me very happy..."
- "...according to some theistic faiths I have lived in sin in my pursuit of happiness..."
- "...you are free to live your life in accordance with your own desires..."
- "...Atheists create their own goals..."
- "...people should do whatever makes them happy..."
- "...the meaning of life is whatever they choose it to be..."
- "...my life goal is to enjoy life and try to make life better for others while I'm at it..."

This may (or may not) point to the Atheist's Ultimate Fact as being "it's all about me."  If someone held the Ultimate Fact of their lives to be "it's all about me", any argument, debate, evidence, or theories to the contrary would simply bounce off (or incite anger, as this post may do!).

Some of you have contended that every living thing does whatever it wants to do.  Is it not possible for humans (alone of any other living thing) to deny themselves and hold an Ultimate Fact of "it's not all about me"?

......aaaaaaaaand.....he charges forward, simply doing the old quote mining, completely ignoring the relevant points I and others tried to make.

Time for me to stop wasting time with this thread. Please feel free to bang your heads on the nearest object.
 

[Chandler M Bing]

Very well put, Whitney.

For my part, my atheism has no connection to happiness. It's simply the absence of a single class of belief. The things that make me happy are, I suspect, largely the same things that make just about everybody happy, and belief in a cosmic curtain-twitcher is not necessary for that.

What makes you happy?

[Inevitable Droid]

I had the following hypotheses when I started this conversation, apologies that they have come across as unclear:
1)  Whether they acknowledge it or not, every individual has one or more foundational beliefs that acts as the invisible hand behind every thought and action

OK.  What you're calling foundational beliefs, I'll call, epistemological assumptions, by which I mean, "assumptions as to what constitutes knowledge and what justifies belief."

2)  This foundational belief could have an impact on one's assessment of the existence of God

Certainly true in my case.  Here are some of my epistemological assumptions:

1. Belief is justified when the probability of accuracy is high, and unjustified otherwise.  
2. The probability of accuracy is high if logical empiricism or, in some cases, logic alone, demands it.
3. Logical empiricism cannot demand the accuracy of a proposition about non-empirical reality.
4. Logic alone cannot demand the accuracy of a proposition about a source of empirical causality.

Meanwhile, God is most often presented as both non-empirical and a source of empirical causality.  If he's non-empirical, then logical empiricism cannot demand the high probable accuracy of the proposition of his existence.  If he's a source of empirical causality, logic alone cannot demand the high probable accuracy of the proposition of his existence.  Nothing else remains that could demand the high probable accuracy of the proposition.  Belief in the proposition is unjustified.  
 
Perhaps the above gives the impression that I'm debating.  I'm not.  I'm describing the contents of my mind.  The above is how my mind works.    

Here are more of my epistemological assumptions:

5. Desire that a proposition be accurate or inaccurate has no bearing on which it is.
6. Comfort or discomfort derived from a proposition has no bearing on its accuracy.
7. A proposition's fortunate or unfortunate ramifications have no bearing on its accuracy.
8. My commitment (or lack thereof) to living as if a proposition were accurate has no bearing on whether it is.

3)  Atheists (and Theists) may have common elements between their foundational beliefs that may influence them to one opinion or another

See above with respect to myself.  How many of the above do you share?

4)  Beliefs about happiness give clues toward understanding one's foundational belief(s)

Not in my case.  I keep belief and desire walled off from one another, on principle.  Desire and its fulfillment are the essence of happiness.

[hackenslash]

Very well put, Whitney.

For my part, my atheism has no connection to happiness. It's simply the absence of a single class of belief. The things that make me happy are, I suspect, largely the same things that make just about everybody happy, and belief in a cosmic curtain-twitcher is not necessary for that.

What makes you happy?

Life, love, learning, music, literature, good food, drink, drugs...

All manner of things really. If I were pressed to sum up in one word what makes me happy, it is this: Experience.