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Biblical foreknowledge?

Started by Nergel, May 25, 2007, 03:32:41 PM

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Nergel

Science And The Bible
The Bible and Earth’s Free-float in Space
At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth’s free float in space: "He . . . hangs the earth upon nothing" (Job 26:7). Science didn’t discover that the earth hangs upon nothing until 1650.

The Bible and the Science of Oceanography
Matthew Maury (1806â€"1873) is considered the father of oceanography. He noticed the expression "paths of the sea" in Psalm 8:8 (written 2,800 years ago) and said, "If God said there are paths in the sea, I am going to find them." Maury then took God at His word and went looking for these paths, and we are indebted to his discovery of the warm and cold continental currents. His book on oceanography remains a basic text on the subject and is still used in universities.

The Bible and Meteorological Laws
The Scriptures describe a "cycle" of air currents two thousand years before scientists discovered them: "The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits" (Ecclesiastes 1:6). We now know that air around the earth turns in huge circles, clockwise in one hemisphere and counter-clockwise in the other.

joeactor

#1
Wow... aside from saying that Pi is 3, the Earth is 6,000 years old and we all came from 2 humans without any incest being involved, (among other glaring errors), and the general vagueness of most of the "scientific" statements, that's amazingly accurate!

The largest distance between two punchlines is the sar-chasm,
JoeActor

McQ

#2
Call me a pessimist, but I smell a Velikovsky reference coming to this topic....
Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Jillette

donkeyhoty

#3
...This is what it's like when worlds collide...
"Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."  - Pat Robertson

McQ

#4
Quote from: "donkeyhoty"...This is what it's like when worlds collide...

**BA-DOOM-CHA!!!**

 :D

That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! Good one!
Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Jillette

Nergel

#5
Interpet it otherwise, it's as simple as that
The verse in job for example can be interpeted as saying that the earth is flat

McQ

#6
Nergel, perhaps you could clue everyone in on the point of your initial post...the point of the thread here. What are you trying to say? Or are you here to post random scripture references. What position are you trying to forward here?

This just seems a bit random right now. Understand?

It's akin to me posting something out of my Photoshop 7 instruction manual just to show that it says things inside it.
Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Jillette

Nergel

#7
Didn't you ever got the argument from biblical foreknowledge?, the book of job was written 3500 years ago and it said this and that

This is from the Hindu sacred book known as the Vedas:
"The moon is 50,000 leagues higher than the sun, and shines by its own light; night is caused by the sun's setting behind a huge mountain several thousand feet high, located in the centre of the earth, that this world, flat and triangular is composed of 7 states - one of honey, another of sugar, a third of butter, and still another of wine, and the whole mass is borne on the heads of countless elephants which in shaking produce earthquakes."
And that's ancient western wisdom

Kestrel

#8
I'm with McQ, Nergel.
You see, all I glean from this;
Quoteone of honey, another of sugar, a third of butter, and still another of wine, and the whole mass is borne on the heads of countless elephants which in shaking produce earthquakes.
...is a recipe for Hindu wine muffins. (in good humor!)

What i need is how long to cook it and at what heat setting.
In other words, please clearly phrase your point so that it is better understood.
Thanks.
The thing that I call living is just being satisfied, with knowing I've got no one left to blame. - Gordon Lightfoot

McQ

#9
Quote from: "Nergel"Didn't you ever got the argument from biblical foreknowledge?, the book of job was written 3500 years ago and it said this and that

This is from the Hindu sacred book known as the Vedas:
"The moon is 50,000 leagues higher than the sun, and shines by its own light; night is caused by the sun's setting behind a huge mountain several thousand feet high, located in the centre of the earth, that this world, flat and triangular is composed of 7 states - one of honey, another of sugar, a third of butter, and still another of wine, and the whole mass is borne on the heads of countless elephants which in shaking produce earthquakes."
And that's ancient western wisdom

I'm still baffled. Nergel perhaps an introduction of yourself would be appropriate, stating your beliefs, background, etc. I'm not sure why you are posting these things. Are you here to support biblical foreknowledge? What faith or lack of faith are you, etc.?

Do you understand that we don't even know why you are posting this? I am able to read the posts, of course, but what is the point of them? Please put these in context of your purpose.
Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Jillette

Nergel

#10
Im a theist. This topic was inspired about a christian friend of mine that tried to convert me to christianity, so I want to see the atheists response about the argument from scientific foreknowledge
Just post your rebuttal that this presents foreknowledge, by interpeting it differently, using ancient people such as Yajnavalkya's foreknowledge about astronomy, provide contradicting verses, etc

joeactor

#11
Quote from: "Nergel"Im a theist. This topic was inspired about a christian friend of mine that tried to convert me to christianity, so I want to see the atheists response about the argument from scientific foreknowledge
Just post your rebuttal that this presents foreknowledge, by interpeting it differently, using ancient people such as Yajnavalkya's foreknowledge about astronomy, provide contradicting verses, etc
Ahhhhh.... I see...

I'm an agnostic theist, but I don't mix science with religion or philosophy.

Until one of these "holy" books can present some kind of unbiased, concrete, testable predictions, it's not science.  I don't look for scientific results from tea leaves, tarot cards, psychics or prophets.

It's like the old joke:
A certain ethic man walks into a shop and says "I'll have a burger, fries and a shake".
The guy behind the counter replies "I'm afraid I can't give you that, sir".
The customer says "Oh!  Is it because I'm certain ethnic?  Is that why?!?!".
"No", replies the owner, "this is a hardware store."


Not looking for a cheeseburger,
JoeActor

SteveS

#12
How about a rebuttal from selective interpretation?

In other words, the language of science is specific and quantitative.  Scientists don't say the earth "hangs upon nothing", they describe it's precise path through space as a result of measured forces acting upon it.  These forces are consistent with the theories that describe them --- with equations, not with poetic interpretations.  Why does this phrase:

Quote"He . . . hangs the earth upon nothing"
seem to be an accurate description of reality to anyone?  The earth, the last time I checked, wasn't "hanging upon nothing".  In fact it isn't hanging at all --- it's falling.  Around the sun.  Which is falling, around the center of the galaxy.  And so on.  Even the concept of hanging implies stasis --- it's just totally wrong.  Of these three, this one is by far the weakest.

About the meteorology reference, I really don't take the book of Ecclesiastes to be a scientific description of atmospheric phenomena as much as a poetic description of the timelessness of existence in the biblical era.  About the author, I'd say he was expressing how things tend to remain the same, whatever you do the wind blows, changes direction, blows again.  It's actually a very eloquent and meaningful sentiment to me --- but not about meteorology.  More about the human condition.  Read the other, surrounding parts of Ecclesiastes, and I think you'll catch my drift.

About ocean currents --- paths?  Really?  You can only say this on a poetic level.  Currents are currents, and they are caused by physical forces and properties - they are not paths.  Wouldn't the so-called Bimini Road qualify more as a path in the ocean?

And what about all the weird, obviously wrong things the bible says?  How about Daniel 2:35
Quote... and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
How can a mountain fill the whole earth?  Think about the geometry of it.  This is impossible.  Unless you envision the world as flat, perhaps?  Ahhhhh, now it makes sense!  How do you separate out the wheat from the chaff?  Couldn't anything resembling a correct explanation just be plain old lucky, considering all the really wrong explanations?

My main point is that if there was no bible, no scientist would ever describe these physical phenomena in the way the bible allegedly describes them.  If god is perfect, and the bible is the word of god, and these phrases were meant to describe actual physical phenomena on earth, then one can't help but wonder why god is such a lousy scientist.

I say your average bible thumper looks at a phrase like one of these and finds it vaguely similar, in some interpretation, to a non-specific description of a concept that is in some fashion reminiscent of a current scientific explanation.  At this point, they say "close enough for me, I just proved god" and live happily ever after.  Like the look on a baby's face changing from consternation to delight when it finally manages to shove the round peg half-way into the square hole.  If I just push hard enough ... hey, it sort of fits!  Must be right!

If god wanted to put scientific foreknowledge into the bible, then why not put something really good in there, like an exact description of the inverse square law central to gravity or electromagnetic force?  So what if the authors of the bible couldn't understand it --- in fact, even better, right?

skeptigirl

#13
OK Nergel, I've heard all those claims of the Bible supposedly having some knowledge that only a god would have known. I've heard this one before too.

So let's just look at the Book of Job, shall we? From The Skeptic's Annotated Bible.
QuoteJob for Skeptics

The Book of Job gets way too much credit from both believers and skeptics. Everyone, it seems, thinks it inspiring and profound, especially those who have never read it. But Job is, in fact, as silly as it is evil. Let me summarize it for you.

God and Satan play a game with the lives of Job and his family. Satan bets that Job will curse God to his face if Job's life is made unpleasant enough. So God (or Satan, it's hard to tell them apart) kills Job's family and sends various torments upon him. Although Job curses the day he was born and says some nasty (and true) things about God, he doesn't curse God (as he should have), so he is rewarded with a new, even better, family. Another happy ending!

Here are a few interesting passages in Job:

    * God asks Satan where he's been. Satan answers, "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up an down in it." 1:7, 2:2

    * God gives Job to Satan, saying: "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power." 1:12, 2:6

    * God (or Satan) kills Job's children in a windstorm. 1:19

    * Satan (or God) smites Job with boils from the "sole of his foot unto his crown." 2:7

    * Job's wife says that to retain his integrity he should "curse God and die." 2:9

    * Job curses the day he was born. 3:1-2, 3:11

    * Job rightly accuses God of multiplying his wounds without cause. 9:17

    * Job says that God "will laugh at the trial of the innocent." 9:23
So that's the background, now let's look at Job 26:7
QuoteHe stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
Yet the Bible also says:
Quote1 Samuel 2:8
    The pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them.

Job 9:6
    Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.
So which is it, pillars or nothing? Pillars are mentioned twice.

And as has already been mentioned, the Biblical version of Creation is a complete myth. My favorites, where is there any mention a simple measure like washing your hands prevents disease?

And all women are supposedly punished for Eve's Original Sin by suffering the pain of childbirth. We were supposedly forgiven by Jesus. Then why didn't child birth pain even merit mention in the New Testament let alone go away for those who are "saved"? Oh, but 2,000 years later, we have anesthesia. Have you found any verses explaining why science gave us anesthesia 2,000 years AD? It was, after all, the crux of the entire Jesus thing, that Original Sin. You'd think Jesus might have mentioned we would have to wait 2,000 years for God to get around to that pain in child birth thing.

Nergel

#14
QuoteOK Nergel, I've heard all those claims of the Bible supposedly having some knowledge that only a god would have known. I've heard this one before too.
I wish I can get a few rebbutals then, perhaps you know of a pre-topics about this?
QuoteSo which is it, pillars or nothing? Pillars are mentioned twice.
it's not speaking of a pedestal upon which the earth sits, but rather the creation of the earth
QuoteAnd as has already been mentioned, the Biblical version of Creation is a complete myth
True, the two accounts are known to be written by two known authors, I forgot their names though
QuoteAnd all women are supposedly punished for Eve's Original Sin by suffering the pain of childbirth. We were supposedly forgiven by Jesus. Then why didn't child birth pain even merit mention in the New Testament let alone go away for those who are "saved"?
Nice perception. But I think Jesus just gave an oppurutunity for believers t go to heaven, nothing more