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the universe is designed

Started by harriet_tubman, May 22, 2010, 11:26:29 AM

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JillSwift

Quote from: "harriet_tubman"it's you who does not provide evidence, not me.  you just say, that's x, that's y and you never provide any reasons.  moreover, you evade my questions.  so really there is no debate between us.
I don't have to provide evidence, I am not making any claims.

You came here and made a claim. You can't support the claim, so I've no reason to accept your claim. That's how rational inquiry works.

Now you're changing the subject, but the fallacious argument is the same: Argument from ignorance. "I've never seen it, so it must not be true."
[size=50]Teleology]

harriet_tubman

#31
Quote from: "JillSwift"
Quote from: "harriet_tubman"it's you who does not provide evidence, not me.  you just say, that's x, that's y and you never provide any reasons.  moreover, you evade my questions.  so really there is no debate between us.
I don't have to provide evidence, I am not making any claims.
you are too making claims: you're saying i'm wrong.  that's a claim.  if you make a claim you have to provide evidence.

QuoteArgument from ignorance. "I've never seen it, so it must not be true."
[/quote]

wrong.  the atheists say all the time, why should i believe in something for which there is no evidence?  now the atheists want me to believe in something for which there is only shaky evidence: that blind forces can shape a design.

harriet_tubman

also, jill, i see that you refer to yourself as a rational inquirer.  come on, have you ever seen anyone call themselves an irrational inquirer?  everyone believes they are rational.  why is it that you somehow have an added edge on the use of the word rational?

JillSwift

Quote from: "harriet_tubman"you are too making claims: you're saying i'm wrong.  that's a claim.  if you make a claim you have to provide evidence.
The fallacies are evidence of a bad argument.

Quote from: "harriet_tubman"wrong.  the atheists say all the time, why should i believe in something for which there is no evidence?
Fallacy "Tu quoque".

Quote from: "harriet_tubman"now the atheists want me to believe in something for which there is only shaky evidence: that blind forces can shape a design.
Argument from ignorance.

Quote from: "harriet_tubman"also, jill, i see that you refer to yourself as a rational inquirer.  come on, have you ever seen anyone call themselves an irrational inquirer?  everyone believes they are rational.  why is it that you somehow have an added edge on the use of the word rational?
Red herring.
[size=50]Teleology]

SSY

I'm not going to bother here, it is obvious our OP is exceedingly obvious and presents no desire to change, I salute those of you who are willing to try.
Quote from: "Godschild"SSY: You are fairly smart and to think I thought you were a few fries short of a happy meal.
Quote from: "Godschild"explain to them how and why you decided to be athiest and take the consequences that come along with it
Quote from: "Aedus"Unlike atheists, I'm not an angry prick

harriet_tubman

Quote from: "SSY"I'm not going to bother here, it is obvious our OP is exceedingly obvious and presents no desire to change, I salute those of you who are willing to try.

come on, ssy, don't give up.  i'll listen to reason.  just give me some good reasons to be an atheist and i'll consider it.

Squid

Quote from: "harriet_tubman"
Quote from: "Squid"As to the capability of "random forces":


yea, i've seen that photo, it's a far cry from the human brain.

The fact remains.  I fail to see design in the human brain - I see the current cross-section of an ongoing natural process.

Whitney

Quote from: "harriet_tubman"
Quote from: "SSY"I'm not going to bother here, it is obvious our OP is exceedingly obvious and presents no desire to change, I salute those of you who are willing to try.

come on, ssy, don't give up.  i'll listen to reason.  just give me some good reasons to be an atheist and i'll consider it.

Most of us don't care if you are an atheist or not.  You were the one who started a thread making wild baseless claims; either support them or find somewhere else to post.


Waste of my time....

harriet_tubman

actually, esse j slim, as for you not caring whether or not the universe is an accident, you say that but you really don't mean that.  everyone has feelings on these issues.  every one has to decide whether or not they are going to lie, cheat and steal in order to get ahead.  

if you choose to lie, cheat and steal you do it and are ashamed of it and don't know why you do it, or you do it because you believe that the universe is an accident and it's a dog eat dog world so you're just struggling to survive.

quite a few atheists believe the universe is an accident but choose not to steal because morals are instinctual.  

so esse j slim you have of course decided whether or not you're going to lie, cheat and steal and that decision is based on your world view.

JillSwift

Quote from: "harriet_tubman"actually, esse j slim, as for you not caring whether or not the universe is an accident, you say that but you really don't mean that.  everyone has feelings on these issues.  every one has to decide whether or not they are going to lie, cheat and steal in order to get ahead.  

if you choose to lie, cheat and steal you do it and are ashamed of it and don't know why you do it, or you do it because you believe that the universe is an accident and it's a dog eat dog world so you're just struggling to survive.

quite a few atheists believe the universe is an accident but choose not to steal because morals are instinctual.  

so esse j slim you have of course decided whether or not you're going to lie, cheat and steal and that decision is based on your world view.
Red herring. An irrelevancy intended to take attention away from the subject of discussion.
Your assertion and the subject of discussion: "the universe is designed"

Your continued avoidance of the subject is becoming insufferable. If you have evidence of a creator, please present it. If you don't, please admit it. All you have offered so far are unsupported assertions and a string of fallacies.
[size=50]Teleology]

elliebean

Quote from: "harriet_tubman"....you say that but you really don't mean that.  everyone has feelings on these issues.....
The above is an example of the kinds of things people say that make it seem entirely pointless to for a rational person to continue any kind of discussion with them (ie. if you think you know what everyone else is thinking, why should we bother - nothing we say gets through to you). You seem like a friendly enough person, yet you've demonstrated, consistently and repeatedly, an apparent refusal to engage in meaningful dialogue; you insist on following the script in your own head, rather than hearing what others have to say. I like to think you are capable of altering your approach so that the conversation is free to go in both directions.

If you're interested in actual discourse, why don't you listen to and respond to the words people are saying, instead of the ones you put in their mouths? My advice to you is to detach yourself emotionally from your position, stick to the facts, define your terms, agree to others' definitions of their terms, support your assertions with specific factual evidence, take criticism seriously but not personally, and evaluate each statement on its merit without filtering it through your own assumptions. If anything is to be gained in continuing this (and the other) discussion, that's the only way it's going to happen. Be open to learning something, because so far you have brought nothing new to the table. It's not that we're not listening to or understanding you; it's that we've heard it all countless times before and have nevertheless arrived at what we see as more reasonable conclusions than yours (or have settled, in some cases, on accepting no conclusion at all). You've yet to make anything approaching a slightly compelling case for even questioning our conclusions, let alone accepting yours.

[/off topic]
[size=150]â€"Ellie [/size]
You can’t lie to yourself. If you do you’ve only fooled a deluded person and where’s the victory in that?â€"Ricky Gervais

Whitney

Quote from: "elliebean"
Quote from: "harriet_tubman"....you say that but you really don't mean that.  everyone has feelings on these issues.....
The above is an example of the kinds of things people say that make it seem entirely pointless to for a rational person to continue any kind of discussion with them (ie. if you think you know what everyone else is thinking, why should we bother - nothing we say gets through to you). You seem like a friendly enough person, yet you've demonstrated, consistently and repeatedly, an apparent refusal to engage in meaningful dialogue; you insist on following the script in your own head, rather than hearing what others have to say. I like to think you are capable of altering your approach so that the conversation is free to go in both directions.

If you're interested in actual discourse, why don't you listen to and respond to the words people are saying, instead of the ones you put in their mouths? My advice to you is to detach yourself emotionally from your position, stick to the facts, define your terms, agree to others' definitions of their terms, support your assertions with specific factual evidence, take criticism seriously but not personally, and evaluate each statement on its merit without filtering it through your own assumptions. If anything is to be gained in continuing this (and the other) discussion, that's the only way it's going to happen. Be open to learning something, because so far you have brought nothing new to the table. It's not that we're not listening to or understanding you; it's that we've heard it all countless times before and have nevertheless arrived at what we see as more reasonable conclusions than yours (or have settled, in some cases, on accepting no conclusion at all). You've yet to make anything approaching a slightly compelling case for even questioning our conclusions, let alone accepting yours.

[/off topic]

Seconded

If you follow the above advice you'll be back on track to being allowed to stick around here like the other respectful theists who inhabit this forum...unfortunately there aren't many of them but they do exist.

harriet_tubman

Quote from: "elliebean"
Quote from: "harriet_tubman"....you say that but you really don't mean that.  everyone has feelings on these issues.....
The above is an example of the kinds of things people say that make it seem entirely pointless to for a rational person to continue any kind of discussion with them (ie. if you think you know what everyone else is thinking, why should we bother - nothing we say gets through to you). You seem like a friendly enough person, yet you've demonstrated, consistently and repeatedly, an apparent refusal to engage in meaningful dialogue; you insist on following the script in your own head, rather than hearing what others have to say. I like to think you are capable of altering your approach so that the conversation is free to go in both directions.

If you're interested in actual discourse, why don't you listen to and respond to the words people are saying, instead of the ones you put in their mouths? My advice to you is to detach yourself emotionally from your position, stick to the facts, define your terms, agree to others' definitions of their terms, support your assertions with specific factual evidence, take criticism seriously but not personally, and evaluate each statement on its merit without filtering it through your own assumptions. If anything is to be gained in continuing this (and the other) discussion, that's the only way it's going to happen. Be open to learning something, because so far you have brought nothing new to the table. It's not that we're not listening to or understanding you; it's that we've heard it all countless times before and have nevertheless arrived at what we see as more reasonable conclusions than yours (or have settled, in some cases, on accepting no conclusion at all). You've yet to make anything approaching a slightly compelling case for even questioning our conclusions, let alone accepting yours.

[/off topic]

ellie, instead of giving me a lecture about how i refuse to debate, why not try to demonstrate how some of my ideas are wrong.

elliebean

Quote from: "harriet_tubman"ellie, instead of giving me a lecture about how i refuse to debate, why not try to demonstrate how some of my ideas are wrong.
You've answered your own question.
[size=150]â€"Ellie [/size]
You can’t lie to yourself. If you do you’ve only fooled a deluded person and where’s the victory in that?â€"Ricky Gervais

Davin

Quote from: "elliebean"
Quote from: "harriet_tubman"ellie, instead of giving me a lecture about how i refuse to debate, why not try to demonstrate how some of my ideas are wrong.
You've answered your own question.
This is hilarious, gonna book mark it for its genius.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.