Free Will and an All Knowing god

[LoneMateria]

I do  

lol true.  Though I think we would get hung up somewhere again before we could debate this.  It's in our nature

[G-Roll]

LoneMateria:

Right, everything has technically been orchestrated since before we were born. In this type of system choice is an illusion since you don't decide, it has been decided you will make choice x. There is no way for you not to make choice x thus the choice is an illusion. It's kind of like having a criminal corner you in an ally and say, "Here's your choice, give me all your money ... or i'll shoot you and take it." You technically have the choice to say No, but you don't have a choice in the matter, that choice is an illusion

now if god where to lay out a plan and you had to follow it then yes there is no free will. but if god knows all and chooses to do nothing but let you walk down the path, you do have free will. if god doesnt participate in your daily decisions nothing is there to stop you along your decision making process. so if you where headed down path x, and god knew about it and didnt do ANYTHING, whats to stop you from taking a right onto path y?  just because god knows we atheists are going to hell doeant mean he does anything to save us or influence us otherwise
basically what im trying to say is that it would be your journey, but god would ultimately know the destination... if that makes since.
just because he would be all knowing doesnt mean he would care how you turned out (obviously). and if he didnt care you would be on your own.

[LoneMateria]

LoneMateria:
now if god where to lay out a plan and you had to follow it then yes there is no free will. but if god knows all and chooses to do nothing but let you walk down the path, you do have free will. if god doesnt participate in your daily decisions nothing is there to stop you along your decision making process. so if you where headed down path x, and god knew about it and didnt do ANYTHING, whats to stop you from taking a right onto path y?  just because god knows we atheists are going to hell doeant mean he does anything to save us or influence us otherwise
basically what im trying to say is that it would be your journey, but god would ultimately know the destination... if that makes since.
just because he would be all knowing doesnt mean he would care how you turned out (obviously). and if he didnt care you would be on your own.

I understand what are saying but I still don't agree with it.  Free will would still be an illusion whether or not a deity intervened.  There would still be no way for you to pick choice y when it has been determined you are going to pick choice x.  What is stopping me from choosing choice y?  Choice y is the illusion.  I may think I can take choice y but I never will, it will be choice x.  If a deity knows every time at a stop sign i'm going to make a left no matter what, then I may think I can take a right and there is nothing stopping me from turning my right blinker on and thinking i'm gonna go right, but I will never go right.  Because the knowledge is already there that I will make a left, the all knowing deity sees I will always make a left and (lets just say s/he isn't able to do anything to interfere) no matter how I perceive things I will always make that left regardless.  How is it a choice if it is determined I will always make that left?

[Mike M.]

What we're trying to say is that a god can't be omniscient at the same time that we have free will.  For him to be omniscient, he knows everything, including every moment of every second of every one of our lives.  So, because he already knows exactly how our life is going to play out, and he is all knowing, we can't possibly have the free will to do what we choose without refuting a god's omniscience.

If god knows that we are going to choose path x and god is all knowing, than we can't choose path y without refuting his omniscience.

--Mike M.

[coltcat]

ah... the ALL KNOWING ability of the super being  
It's like the movie NEXT.
consider a god can know all the finite possibilities of an action you take.
god know what you gonna eat for dinner, it could be steak or spaghetti.
and when you take the steak, god can just say "See, I knew it's gonna happen"
and god is self correcting it's view of future by observing every single movement by everyone and everything witch god calculated before as one of the possibilities.
if we push the process forward into any point in the future, and god could still say he knew it's gonna happen as it's one of the possibility he considered.
by far, I don't see any logical flaw.
except god's knowledge has it's effective range, we cant push this ability into an infinite timeline. god must wait until his "possibility" has become "certainty" than he can make prediciton base on the certainty. question is how far can a god know?
 
yet again. if theres a super being in the universe has this cool ability, so what?

[G-Roll]

What we're trying to say is that a god can't be omniscient at the same time that we have free will.  For him to be omniscient, he knows everything, including every moment of every second of every one of our lives.  So, because he already knows exactly how our life is going to play out, and he is all knowing, we can't possibly have the free will to do what we choose without refuting a god's omniscience.

If god knows that we are going to choose path x and god is all knowing, than we can't choose path y without refuting his omniscience.

--Mike M.

I do see what you and  LoneMateria are saying. The only thing I don’t get is the difference of knowing and acting upon that knowledge that the deity would posses.
If the god knew path y was in our future (a future that he did not make for us) but didn’t send us down that path how is he/she/it responsible?
Maybe another example might be if the 3 of us went to Vegas and I knew the roulette wheel was rigged. But I didn’t tell anyone and you two lost a bunch of money, then got all pissed and blamed me.
Perhaps Im discussing something else though, or I could just be out in left field... I usually find myself there any who.

[Ellainix]

Here is my problem with the whole god thing.

This god person knew I would be very certain that there was no god, and he knows he can do plenty to convince me he exists. He knows exactly what random events will and won't convince me he is real. He knows exactly how logically sound I perceive my conclusion to be. Should he allow me to live the rest of my life thinking I am right for good reasons? Then I will die. He will send me to hell knowing exactly everything he could have done to save me. He's going to send me to hell because he did not convince me he was real. The Christians will continue talking about how loving and caring he is to everyone.

He will say to me "When my loyal servants told you the message of my son Jesus Christ, did you not listen? Did you not want to live forever with me in heaven?"

And I will reply "That sounded like a good offer, but then again, so did the the warranty extension on my BMW."