Does/Can Logic prove/disprove God?

[Messenger]

If God exists can he/she/it proved by Logic or not?
If God exists can he defies Logic?
Do we have an agreement on the Basis of Logic or not? can we formalized some rules regarding Logic?

Hi guys I'm an expert in Logic and would like to help every one here (Atheists/Theists) to find the truth

Please be honest in your search and don't just defend your faith/None?

*I'll not answer any offensive, off topic posts

[Tanker]

It would depend on your deffinition of god and it"s noted powers and limitation.

[Messenger]

It would depend on your deffinition of god and it"s noted powers and limitation.

I mean just the basics that almost all theists will agree on

God is a being that created everything,

His power and limitation is off topic here, but most theists agree that he has infinite power and no limitations (except his will)

[Tanker]

I assume your talking about the judeo-christian god then. Since many shamanistic and naturalistic, not to mention polytheistic religions, don't have the same qualifications for "god". Which is why I asked for the clarification. According to the Judeo-Christian deffinion of god you must belive with faith not reason or logic. In my own studies I haven't found much religious "logic" the wasen't inherently illogical. So no I don't personally believe the "faith" that most religions require, logical, nor do any powers or presumed godliness seem logical. Short anwer, no.

[bowmore]

I mean just the basics that almost all theists will agree on

God is a being that created everything,

His power and limitation is off topic here, but most theists agree that he has infinite power and no limitations (except his will)

1. A god is a being that has created everything.
2. A god exists.
3. Therefore a being exists that created itself.

The conclusion, while not in contradiction with any of the other premises, seems to contradict itself.
I guess we should define 'create' better to assess if 3 is indeed logically possible.

[wheels5894]

i thought the Christian god was supposed to always have existed thus had no need to create him/her self. I mean, the Nicene Creed says, refering to Jesus the "he was eternally begotten before all worlds. " If we take the words literally, then we have no problem with the logic I think -

1. A god is a being that has created everything.
2. A god always existed.
3. [strike:2dqfal3i]Therefore a being exists that created itself.[/strike:2dqfal3i]

[bowmore]

i thought the Christian god was supposed to always have existed thus had no need to create him/her self. I mean, the Nicene Creed says, refering to Jesus the "he was eternally begotten before all worlds. " If we take the words literally, then we have no problem with the logic I think -

1. A god is a being that has created everything.
2. A god always existed.
3. [strike:2on4ey9w]Therefore a being exists that created itself.[/strike:2on4ey9w]

1. A god is a being that has created everything.
2. A god always existed.
3. Therefore a god is not part of everything
4. Therefore no god exists.
5. 4 and 2 contradict each other, at least one of our premises (1 or 2) must be false.
6. Therefore god is not a being that has created everything, or god has not always existed.

[Messenger]

i thought the Christian god was supposed to always have existed thus had no need to create him/her self. I mean, the Nicene Creed says, refering to Jesus the "he was eternally begotten before all worlds. " If we take the words literally, then we have no problem with the logic I think -

1. A god is a being that has created everything.
2. A god always existed.
3. [strike:3vtdg2lv]Therefore a being exists that created itself.[/strike:3vtdg2lv]

1. A god is a being that has created everything.
2. A god always existed.
3. Therefore a god is not part of everything
4. Therefore no god exists.
5. 4 and 2 contradict each other, at least one of our premises (1 or 2) must be false.
6. Therefore god is not a being that has created everything, or god has not always existed.

This should be obvious, everything means Everything except him

Too obvious statements are redundant to be posted among normal people

[Messenger]

I assume your talking about the judeo-christian god then. Since many shamanistic and naturalistic, not to mention polytheistic religions, don't have the same qualifications for "god". Which is why I asked for the clarification. According to the Judeo-Christian deffinion of god you must belive with faith not reason or logic. In my own studies I haven't found much religious "logic" the wasen't inherently illogical. So no I don't personally believe the "faith" that most religions require, logical, nor do any powers or presumed godliness seem logical. Short anwer, no.

I totally agree with you, if God can not be proven, there is no need to believe in him at all

If he exists and did not make any effort to allow us to prove him, then he is unfair and has no right to punish us for not believing in him

So I think that if God exists we should be able to prove him (and disprove every false God as well)
And this proof should not need too much knowledge or science to be understood (even more science and knowledge should lead more towards not away from him)

[bowmore]

This should be obvious, everything means Everything except him

Too obvious statements is redundant to be posted among normal people

Why should that be obvious? If you're going to use words to mean something they don't usually mean, you can't expect people to know this without telling them. I'd expect much more care for the definitons from a logician  

[Messenger]

This should be obvious, everything means Everything except him

Too obvious statements is redundant to be posted among normal people

Why should that be obvious? If you're going to use words to mean something they don't usually mean, you can't expect people to know this without telling them. I'd expect much more care for the definitons from a logician  

Because nothing can creates itself!
Which brings us to LOGIC

What is Logic?
Can we have a formal definition of Logic that we can use to test any statement if it is logical or not; For example "God created himself"

[bowmore]

Why should that be obvious? If you're going to use words to mean something they don't usually mean, you can't expect people to know this without telling them. I'd expect much more care for the definitons from a logician  

In order to determine the truth of a statement it must depend on premises whose truth is known.
Based on the premises you've given me so far, I don't think it is possible to logically prove that a god can or cannot exist.

[Tanker]

That's exactly why I was trying to get his deffinion of god. Information even logicical information can't work in a void you must set parameters or it's all metal maturbation. What may seem logical to one person with one set of parameters is completly illogical to a person with a diffrent set of parameters. As an example 0x0=0 is perfectly logical while 6x0=0 may not seem as logical it might seem it should be 6x0=6. Unless you had the parameters that 0 x n is zero.

[Messenger]

That's exactly why I was trying to get his deffinion of god. Information even logicical information can't work in a void you must set parameters or it's all metal maturbation. What may seem logical to one person with one set of parameters is completly illogical to a person with a diffrent set of parameters. As an example 0x0=0 is perfectly logical while 6x0=0 may not seem as logical it might seem it should be 6x0=6. Unless you had the parameters that 0 x n is zero.

Yes, but notice that Logical does not mean Correct

[Messenger]

"Nothing can create itself" is a premise that wasn't included. It may follow from the definition of 'to create' which is why I suggested we should look into that.

No, the statement "God created himself" fails by itself

What is logic? Odd question from a logician  

I know, I just want to know what is yours

In order to determine the truth of a statement it must depend on premises whose truth is known.
Based on the premises you've given me so far, I don't think it is possible to logically prove that a god can or cannot exist.

We are not talking about truth or even does God exist or not!
We are talking about Logic and will it be possible to prove or disprove God using it

First we need to formalize Logic, then we have a common base to start with