Author Topic: Another Mass Shooting  (Read 1395 times)

Tank

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Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2017, 07:06:18 AM »
I agree with all you have said. But I feel there is more to the issue. Guns facilitate violence both practically and psychologically in a way only a weapon can. It becomes a focus of intent in a way a pressure cooker can't. A gun is a device that is violence incarnate. To achieve justification for its existence it must do violence or threaten to do violence.

I understand your perspective but I would have to disagree.  I think such a view is akin to stating that people are driven to violence simply because the opportunity exists. From my perspective, a gun is a device - on that we agree.  However, my view of a gun being a threat is largely dependent upon the human wielding it and their intentions.  The same would go for a machete, a baseball bat, or even a screw driver.  I think that it is not a gun problem America has but an social integrity problem and an inability to deal effectively with mental health.

I would be curious to let you elaborate on why you view firearms and a manifestation of violence.
You appear a sane and thoughtful individual  thus you see a gun as a device. The issue that concerns me is the immediacy and level of violence (and thus perceived power) of a gun lowers the threshold of temptation to use a gun. Nobody to my knowledge has ever sat stroking a pressure cooker because it was aspirational to own one or gave them a sense of power.

So if you have a toxic mix of mental health issues and guns why not simply remove the guns? There will still be murders but as many? I strongly doubt that. How many deaths is America willing to pay to keep guns on the streets? Thousands and thousands and thousands by the look of it.

In answer to your question about violence I find it impossible not to associates guns with violence. When has there ever been a scene in a TV show or movie when a gun was portrayed in anything other than in the context of violence? I can't think of one and even if I could it would be one in 1,000, one in 10,000, one in a million? The perception of guns is that they are violence and power incarnate. The TV and movie industry thrive and amplify that perception 24/7/365.

You raise a valid point about Timothy McVeigh, but it's not the whole story. He put a huge amount of thought, effort and most importantly time into what he did. It wasn't an off the cuff action so in terms of day-to-day gun violence it was atypical.

America is soaked with guns. It has poor mental health care. And that combination is killing you by the thousands and will continue as long as owning guns is considered aspirational, glamorous and a significant part of the economy. Many Americans love guns. Think about that, they love guns. It's not just the individuals that are deranged it's pretty much the whole of American society. Apologies if that sounds rude and brutal. :(

I so wish I had more time right now Tank but work and homework drain my time.  I'll try to respond soon.  Just wanted to let you know I wasn't ignoring you.

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hermes2015

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Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2017, 07:37:57 AM »
Are you allowed to wear a sword in public?

As of September 1st, here in Texas we can.  Much to my disappointment I haven't witnessed a bunch of people running after each other with swords drawn yelling, "There can be only one!"

Yeah, I forgot about the new law.  Now I can justify buying a sword at the Texas Renaissance Festival.

Cutlass, sabre, broad or epee?  A gladius might be more convenient in the car or bus!

The idea of carrying a sword cane while flaneuring in a Parisian boulevard has always appealed to the romantic in me.

Dragonia

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Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2017, 01:15:58 PM »
Comme ci? ;)
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~ Plato (?)

Papasito Bruno

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Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #63 on: October 12, 2017, 05:10:36 PM »
A few things that are harder to get than guns in America:

Food stamps
Sudafed
Marriage licenses
Dildos
Raw milk


We are obsessed with guns, and this obsession is killing and injuring Americans at what some would call an alarming rate. However, there are some that would say these deaths and injuries, although tragic are the price for freedom here in America.

Apparently all the other free countries in the world aren't really free because they don't suffer anything approaching the same rate of deaths or injuries we Americans due. Some of these casualty figures for the US are listed below.

Numbers for 2017. (But hey, we still have several months to go...)

Total Number of Incidents: 48,240
Number of Deaths: 12,058
Number of Injuries: 24,564
Number of Children (age 0-11)
Killed or Injured: 563

Number of Teens (age 12-17)
Killed or Injured: 2,524
Mass Shooting: 279
Officer Involved Incident
Officer Shot or Killed: 240
Officer Involved Incident
Subject-Suspect Shot or Killed: 1,609
Home Invasion: 1,923
Defensive Use: 1,571
Unintentional Shooting: 1,567


I think this picture of lifelong white supremacist and neo-fucking Nazi, Dennis Mothersbaugh while wearing his God, Guns, & TRUMP shirt, which was taken recently while he was being extradited to Charlottesville sums up the far rights obsession quite well.

GOD, GUNS, & TRUMP




This issue will not go away, mass shootings will continue to occur, death rates from guns will continue to rise each year. At some point America will turn itself into a third world nation unlike any other on the planet, and the very freedoms we love and cherish will be smothered and choked from our society.
We'll have our guns, but nothing else.
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Bad Penny II

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Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2017, 05:48:56 PM »
A few things that are harder to get than guns in America:

Food stamps

I thought you could pick 'em up at a discount from the poor.
Use 'em to pay for your shopping and with the money you save pay for your holiday.
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Bad Penny II

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Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2017, 06:21:48 PM »
Are bayonets OK?
I feel safer with a bayonet, if I run out of those little pointy death things, or have a jam, I don't want to be left reaching for my second gun when confronted by a government interloper.
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Papasito Bruno

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Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2017, 06:25:53 PM »
Since the mass shooting in Las Vegas that left 58 people dead and hundreds wounded, this issue of gun control here in the US has been continually debated, though many had said in the days after the shooting that it was too soon to discuss or debate because we should offer thoughts and prayers first.

So I'm wondering if it is time yet?

Most American support stricter gun laws according to the Pew Research Center, however. Most legislation won't make it through the Republican controlled Congress.

It's be a month since the shooting, and according to the Gun Violence Archive, more than 2,738 people have been shot, and more than 800 people have been killed by gun violence here in the United States.

Nothing is changing, but hey...at least we got our guns.

Makes us cooler than other countries.

USA is #1
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Dave

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Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #67 on: October 27, 2017, 06:55:04 PM »
^
Those figures are sickening and the product of a sick society.
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Icarus

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Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2017, 11:48:54 PM »
Dave the totality of our society is not sick but we certainly have a disproportionate number of our  members who are showing profound symptoms, even deadly symptoms. 

I am a charter member of the advocates for gun control, which happens to be far more than half of our nations population. I have no problem with guns, they are only mechanical devices that are capable of launching a projectile.  I do have a problem with that group of people who passionately believe that they can not live in some sort of socially acceptable harmony without their guns. 

The ugly truth is that guns are not the only problem that we have.  There are nut cases all over the place. Some of them, including ones in Merrie Olde England (and France, Spain, Sudan, Pakistan, Syria, Lebanon, Afg....well you get the idea) contrive other ways to kill innocent people for no rational reason whatsofucking ever.

Today,   October 31 2017 ,in New York City, some crazy person rented a pickup truck, ran down and killed eight people on a bicycle path. Why????????

What is the deal with the crazies that use pressure cooker pots to blow up some of the marathoners?  Why would someone, or some organization, use giant truck borne explosives to kill nearly 300 innocent people in Mogadishu?  Why?????? How in hell does that make any sense?????

Why did that lunatic massacre all those people at Las Vegas? Why? To what end? That was a gun incident. The nut case had no prior record of violence and he was legally qualified to buy the guns that he used.  "Houston We have a problem"....correction....the civilized world has a problem.

Dave

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Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #69 on: November 01, 2017, 06:04:02 AM »
I agree, Icarus, that there seems to be a world wide epidemic of murder at the moment. And perhaps my reaction has something of the knee-jerk about it. However my reaction has not changed much since before terrorism became a global industry.

Sorry but I have to differrntiate between those who act for what they see is a  "common cause" (no matter what we think of it religious belief has been a powerful motivating force for as long as recorded history and, possibly, millenia before that) and those individuals with some form of diagnosable mental illness. Though I too use words like "deluded" to describe those inflicted with religious fervour I do not intellectually consider it a mental illness, rather an abberation of the mind, similar to that which, despite evidence to the contrary, causes some to think that water "remembers" a no longer present substance which gives it curative powers.

True paranoia and/or schizophrenia, possibly present in some form in most mass shooters. are another matter - it is a personal illness, though it has to be said it might seem that it can be thought of as "contagious" if possesed by a person of otherwise strong personslity influencing those with a personality "succeptible" to any strong "message". Combined with that almost genetic seeming religious fervour it can be a true force for "evil." The individual insane person is as dangerous as his or her means to express sny violent aspect of their disease. That guns are do essily svsilable to those who may become afflicted with such a condition is a fault in his or her society and not the infividual.

I see the obsession that some Americans have with guns, other than as tools for accuracy sport, food (not trophy) hunting or vermin conttol, a special kind of sickness. Pistols and carbine type firearms are also tools, but tools designed for the purpose of killing anything within a fairly close range -  mostly other humans, unless, of course, you are thinking of a close encounter with with the likes of a bear or cougar on the high street or in the store or diner. A true hunting rifle is, agreed, just a long range killing weapon in essence, use dependant on the mental state of the weilder. Match rifles can also kill any kind of creature at long range I agree.

However, semi or fully automatic weapons are another matter, such are designed for multiple killing from the very begining. Those who design and offer services or devices that convert semi automatics to the full variety are, in my mind, morally complicit in any event that uses such for multiple murder.

I am also fascinated by guns, have bern since I was a kid, avidly read "Guns and Ammo" when I could get hold of a copy. Even owned a converted Lee-Enfield 303 rifle converted to a 410 shotgun - and enjoyed ridding farms of pigeons and rats. But never even thought of having the right to bear arms whilst carrying out my everyday life. One of your countrymen, on another atheist forum, said that he would never consider leaving the house without an open carry weapon - "because every nutter around can do the same" (parsphrased from memory). That, to me, was self-admittancebof being a fellow member of a society of nutters. Several of the pro-gun lobby on that forum fully aggreed with him.

If the majority are pro strict control and regulation, hopefully requiring mandatory formal training, that is good, but why are they not, en masse, taking stronger positive action to try to convince their political representatives to vote for such measures in congress? Why do they want any kind of widespread gun ownerdhip to start with, regulated or not? Are they going to ooen fire on any vehicle that it merely pointed towards or comes near pedestrians. Are they expecting a terrorist with a knife or gun round every corner? Bit useless, or counter productive even, against suicidal explosive carriers though.

Sorry, Icarus, an obsession is still, at best, a form of mental aberration. A nationally regulated obesession is . . . The advocates of virtualy unregulated gun ownership (or those willing to use them to access and hold political power), despite the tens of thousands who are injured or killed by accident, crime or the actions of the insane involving such instruments, currently have control of this aspect of your society. That they do so is a blight on the whole society for not redressing the matter. "Society" is, effectively, a product of the larger body of thought, or st least thise with the power or influence over thst body. That, like "religion" or any other human mass effect, will have a spectrum from "good" to "evil" within it, but its overall "appearance" , to others, depends on its most obvious characteristics.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 06:31:26 AM by Dave »
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Dave

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Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #70 on: November 01, 2017, 08:06:54 AM »
Writing, re-reading and editing the above has msde me self-aware of the degree to which I may be influenced, despite myself, by the biases of the media. Like all of us I get my information from indirect sources, each with some form of agenda, even the "academic" ones can suffer from subjective influence. Socieries cannot be precisely measured and calibrated and even those who are members of such often have a dual opinion, one intensely personal the other part of an understandable "herd tendency". Their actions will be a combination of the two and may fluctuate between the person's extremes.

So, who has the right to judge a society? The members or the external observers of it? Do those externsl observers judge from a comparixon with their own society, from a hypoctitical point of view - ignoring the errors inherentbin their own society, of from the reports of those who's job is to highlight the extraordinary?

Personally I try my best to avoid opinionated journalism and to be aware of language intended to bias my thinking - probably with less than 100% success. Even what seem like bare statistics can be presented with language, typography or graphics designed to influence the reader (I am guilty of this myself!) "Non-zero origin" graphs making a tiny variation look like a huge effect, red text can have a stronger subliminal emotional effect than green or even black, thick black borders . . . (There was an excellent programme on BBC radio on this last week.)

From my experience of my, less thsn ideal I agree, society that of America seem crass, artificial and violent in the whole, though I know tgst there sre good people over there and whole neighbourhoods of friendly types. Just as there are good Christians, Jews, Muslims etc.

People should be judged on what they do not what they are labelled - I keep telling myself... But when a society has the power of strong global influence I have s right of opinion on it, an opinion based on that society's actions, internally as well because those may influence its foreign policies and the activities of its agents and any subsequent effects on my society.
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Icarus

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Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #71 on: November 01, 2017, 08:47:29 PM »
Well done above, Dave.  You may be given the title of  honorary forum philosopher.  You must share that title with several other of our members who are also acknowledged thinkers.

Dave

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Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2017, 09:16:51 PM »
Well done above, Dave.  You may be given the title of  honorary forum philosopher.  You must share that title with several other of our members who are also acknowledged thinkers.

Thanks, Icarus, I just wish it was not 4am trips to the loo for a piss that inspired such outpourings!  I often wake about then and find that my mind fizzes a bit. Typing still crap though (lying on my back in bed with the tablet perched on my chest).  It needed at least one more edit, may try to beat it into a more coherent shape as an essay just for the practice.
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Dave

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Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #73 on: November 05, 2017, 08:15:39 PM »
And here we go again...

Quote
At least 27 people have died after a gunman opened fire at a church in Texas during Sunday services.
The attack happened at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs in Wilson County.
A police commissioner at the scene confirmed that at least 27 people had died. Several others are reported to be injured.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41880511
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Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #74 on: November 05, 2017, 11:20:42 PM »
And already the NRA supporters are blathering about how it's not a gun problem but a mental health problem.  Like crazy people allowed to buy guns isn't a problem all on its own.
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