Author Topic: Another Mass Shooting  (Read 675 times)

Dave

  • Formerly known as Gloucester
  • Has an Invisible Dragon in Their Garage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2017, 12:47:57 PM »
Your are saying things that I have long thought, Bruce! I said elsewhere that a training period, in use, safety and maintenance, including ethics, should be mandatory before a permit to buy and own a firearm will be issued. Also much tighter control on the types of weapon available, as you say.

But, really, why does a nation like the US need such a militia at all in the 21st century? I know that the Swiss maintain an armed (but officially trained) public because they have been surrounded by historically aggressive neighbours for centuries. In any modern world war, even a conventional one, I feel that resistance movements (the only justifucation for such a militia) in a scenario where any nation invading the US would require massive aerial overkill to come anywhere near success, would be pretty futile - unless they still massively outnumbered the occupying enemy troops and had an almost endless supply stock. I doubt that any such invader would play by the Geneva Convention rules, attacks on their troops would almost certainly incur retaliation against unarmed civilians. After all, it is really the real estate and resources and/or an end to the "American-Way-of-Life", and its perceived threat to their own, that the enemy wants - not millions of dependant and resentful "prisoners" that must be maintained and controlled 24/7. Recent actions seem to indicate that most potential enemies seem to consider some form of mass extermination of the enemy a valid weapon of war and control.

Is it possible that this hanging on to an historical, but possibly obsolete, ammendment is really an excuse to justify a national tendency towards violence? Aggression as much as defence? A large part of the early, and possibly later, immigrant "psychotype" was concentrated on those fleeing oppressive or genocidal regimes or seeking to "make their fortune". Justifiably, in some ways, being willing to fight against the chance of recurrence of those experiences or for that ambition became the norm. After a very few generations such might become a national stereotype, an officially accepted policy. But it has stepped out of the debating room and into the physicality of violence so many times.

A militia could be necessary in the event of local breakdown of order, or in the event of revolution, government downfall, or invasion.  All of these happen in the 21st Century.  They may not be likely, but they are possible.

Problem is the internal rebellion could come from sone of those very militias! The important part , "... a well regulated militia...", is the crucial ekement that - apart from the Natiinal Guard - seems to be missing element. As I said before, mandatory training before purchase or ownership is allowed and registration of all arms might go a way to preventing nutters like Padock assembling a whole armoury. Though one bump stock modified semi-auto assault rifle equals a fair massacre on its own.

Only single shot hunting or competition rifles and double barelled shotguns are allowed over here I think, and you have to have club membership to own the latter or competition pistols.  Special Home Office permits go to very few to hold multi shot pistols for personal defence.  My old .4l0 shotgun, a modified WW2 Lee Enfield .303 rifle, was further modified so it could not be magazine fed.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Tank

  • Fed up with stupid.
  • Administrator
  • Excellent and Indefatigable Guardian of Reason
  • *****
  • Posts: 28610
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2017, 01:01:09 PM »
...
Only single shot hunting or competition rifles and double barelled shotguns are allowed over here I think, and you have to have club membership to own the latter or competition pistols.  Special Home Office permits go to very few to hold multi shot pistols for personal defence.  My old .4l0 shotgun, a modified WW2 Lee Enfield .303 rifle, was further modified so it could not be magazine fed.
Competition pistols are illegal in the UK. Our Olympic team trains on the continent. There is no class of handgun that is legal in the UK.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett

Dave

  • Formerly known as Gloucester
  • Has an Invisible Dragon in Their Garage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2017, 01:07:48 PM »
...
Only single shot hunting or competition rifles and double barelled shotguns are allowed over here I think, and you have to have club membership to own the latter or competition pistols.  Special Home Office permits go to very few to hold multi shot pistols for personal defence.  My old .4l0 shotgun, a modified WW2 Lee Enfield .303 rifle, was further modified so it could not be magazine fed.
Competition pistols are illegal in the UK. Our Olympic team trains on the continent. There is no class of handgun that is legal in the UK.

Ah, thanks, Tank. Were they ever legal? I seem to remember thst Dunblane changed some rules.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Tank

  • Fed up with stupid.
  • Administrator
  • Excellent and Indefatigable Guardian of Reason
  • *****
  • Posts: 28610
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2017, 02:11:07 PM »
...
Only single shot hunting or competition rifles and double barelled shotguns are allowed over here I think, and you have to have club membership to own the latter or competition pistols.  Special Home Office permits go to very few to hold multi shot pistols for personal defence.  My old .4l0 shotgun, a modified WW2 Lee Enfield .303 rifle, was further modified so it could not be magazine fed.
Competition pistols are illegal in the UK. Our Olympic team trains on the continent. There is no class of handgun that is legal in the UK.

Ah, thanks, Tank. Were they ever legal? I seem to remember thst Dunblane changed some rules.
Yes. Dunblane did for all hand guns in civilian hands in the UK.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett

solidsquid

  • Has Received Bacon
  • *
  • Posts: 143
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2017, 03:54:42 PM »
I think the focus is upon the wrong aspect. People automatically focus on guns most often because, in my humble opinion, it is a polarizing topic and gets people fired up and talking.  It's also great for media ratings especially due to the strength of confirmation bias.  Putting the tools of the violence aside - what is the driving force behind such mass killings?  I think to get down to the root of the matter would require addressing complex social we, as a people, are not yet ready to really truly deal with. 

I think we shun addressing the underlying motivations because they are large and complex to deal with.  We cannot legislate away terrorism.  It's already illegal but that doesn't stop terrorists of which many are religious zealots.  Also, such behavior outside of a religious context, whether violent or not, is almost universally viewed as a mental health problem which is the other huge issue underlying mass casualty events that too often gets little to no attention. 

If you look back at all the mass shootings (not the definition used by some organizations where any event involving two or more people is considered a mass shooting), in nearly every instance there was an element of radicalized religiosity and/or mental health issues.  Even if you extend past the issue of weapons of choice and just involve all mass casualty events that are not natural or accidents but intensional violent acts you find all manner of implements utilized to kill many people, from guns to vehicles, knives to pressure cookers and black powder.  What then becomes the commonalities? Extremism and mental health problems. Yet we focus on guns. Timothy McVeigh killed nearly 200 people and never fired a shot.

So, I don't think we have a gun problem, we have a mental health and extremism problem.

Dave

  • Formerly known as Gloucester
  • Has an Invisible Dragon in Their Garage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2017, 09:38:12 PM »
^
I agree with what you say, Solud, but with the qualification that separating those that suffer mental problems from the means of multiple murder is the easiest and quickest achieved "solution". Yes, you cannot legislate against illegal firearms or all edged instruments, whether weapons or tools.

Mental health, and I will include radicalised, extremist and fundamentalist members of any belief group in that bracket, are always going to be a problem. And, from this side of the pond, it seems a problem that America has "specialised" in creating or attracting over its history. That plus relatively easy access to guns is an obvious formular for trouble.

This is not helped by comparatively rational, sane, people feeling uncomfortable about any possible restriction on the acceptable ownership and use of "sporting" firearms. I will reiterate the idea of tighter restrictions on purchase and use; mandatory "screening", registration, training and regulation at the users' expence.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Tank

  • Fed up with stupid.
  • Administrator
  • Excellent and Indefatigable Guardian of Reason
  • *****
  • Posts: 28610
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2017, 10:47:06 PM »
I think the focus is upon the wrong aspect. People automatically focus on guns most often because, in my humble opinion, it is a polarizing topic and gets people fired up and talking.  It's also great for media ratings especially due to the strength of confirmation bias.  Putting the tools of the violence aside - what is the driving force behind such mass killings?  I think to get down to the root of the matter would require addressing complex social we, as a people, are not yet ready to really truly deal with. 

I think we shun addressing the underlying motivations because they are large and complex to deal with.  We cannot legislate away terrorism.  It's already illegal but that doesn't stop terrorists of which many are religious zealots.  Also, such behavior outside of a religious context, whether violent or not, is almost universally viewed as a mental health problem which is the other huge issue underlying mass casualty events that too often gets little to no attention. 

If you look back at all the mass shootings (not the definition used by some organizations where any event involving two or more people is considered a mass shooting), in nearly every instance there was an element of radicalized religiosity and/or mental health issues.  Even if you extend past the issue of weapons of choice and just involve all mass casualty events that are not natural or accidents but intensional violent acts you find all manner of implements utilized to kill many people, from guns to vehicles, knives to pressure cookers and black powder.  What then becomes the commonalities? Extremism and mental health problems. Yet we focus on guns. Timothy McVeigh killed nearly 200 people and never fired a shot.

So, I don't think we have a gun problem, we have a mental health and extremism problem.
I agree with all you have said. But I feel there is more to the issue. Guns facilitate violence both practically and psychologically in a way only a weapon can. It becomes a focus of intent in a way a pressure cooker can't. A gun is a device that is violence incarnate. To achieve justification for its existence it must do violence or threaten to do violence. It has no place in general society. People might want them but they very rarely need them. Reducing the societal weapon load to those with a justifiable need for them can not feasibly do anything other than reduce gun related deaths.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett

Dave

  • Formerly known as Gloucester
  • Has an Invisible Dragon in Their Garage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2017, 12:31:12 AM »
^
Yes, the gun and the "right to bear" has become an intrinsic part of the "American Way of Life". Along with what looks awfully like a form of  social evolution, only the strong have a right to survive in the deeper recesses of the "national mind."
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

solidsquid

  • Has Received Bacon
  • *
  • Posts: 143
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2017, 07:50:36 AM »
I agree with all you have said. But I feel there is more to the issue. Guns facilitate violence both practically and psychologically in a way only a weapon can. It becomes a focus of intent in a way a pressure cooker can't. A gun is a device that is violence incarnate. To achieve justification for its existence it must do violence or threaten to do violence.

I understand your perspective but I would have to disagree.  I think such a view is akin to stating that people are driven to violence simply because the opportunity exists. From my perspective, a gun is a device - on that we agree.  However, my view of a gun being a threat is largely dependent upon the human wielding it and their intentions.  The same would go for a machete, a baseball bat, or even a screw driver.  I think that it is not a gun problem America has but an social integrity problem and an inability to deal effectively with mental health.

I would be curious to let you elaborate on why you view firearms and a manifestation of violence.

Ecurb Noselrub

  • No Wall in my name!!!
  • Guardian of Reason
  • *****
  • Posts: 6010
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2017, 08:35:18 AM »
Every society makes its own decisions about what is or is not acceptable.  In the USA, we have agreed that private ownership of weapons is acceptable, and that occasional episodes of violence are acceptable.  The recent event may lead to some tweaking of the regulatory framework, but the right to bear arms is not going to be revoked anytime soon.  It's part of our DNA, and that's the way it's going to stay for the foreseeable future.  There will be more of these events, but we've agreed, as a society, that this is an acceptable consequence.

solidsquid

  • Has Received Bacon
  • *
  • Posts: 143
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2017, 08:44:13 AM »
I will reiterate the idea of tighter restrictions on purchase and use; mandatory "screening", registration, training and regulation at the users' expence.

I find myself going back and forth on this point and have for some time.  I'm not one who is a fan of bureaucracy nor am I a fan of placing more and more restrictions on something our country purports is a "right" of the citizens.  However, as a people we have allowed and even called for placing restrictions on those rights such as with "hate speech" in relation to the First Amendment as well as the multitude of gun laws already on the books - the banning of particular modifications such as "sawed off" shotguns, the restrictions placed upon fully automatic weapons, the mandatory background checks when purchasing from a licensed FFL holder, requirements for training and license in order to carry a handgun in public, among others.  There was also the decade long ban on so-called "assault weapons" from 1994-2004.

I wish I had more time to discuss my thoughts on the matter in detail but I unfortunately have some homework to tackle.

Dave

  • Formerly known as Gloucester
  • Has an Invisible Dragon in Their Garage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2017, 09:17:47 AM »
Every society makes its own decisions about what is or is not acceptable.  In the USA, we have agreed that private ownership of weapons is acceptable, and that occasional episodes of violence are acceptable.  The recent event may lead to some tweaking of the regulatory framework, but the right to bear arms is not going to be revoked anytime soon.  It's part of our DNA, and that's the way it's going to stay for the foreseeable future.  There will be more of these events, but we've agreed, as a society, that this is an acceptable consequence.

I was going to say that that was alien to everything I think. Almost immediately I thought of the fact that road vehicles have been a danger to life and limb ever since they were allowed on the public highway. But they have recently become a terrorist weapon of choice, they are easily available and draw little attention until actually used as anti-personnel missiles.

We cannot ban road vehicles so, as you say Bruce, we put up with their dangerous aspects, very, very few use them as weapons. Very, very few of the maybe millions of owners in America use guns to deliberately kill without "acceptable" cause or reason. Though I remrmber the British lad, lost in Miami I think,  who knocked on s door to ask directions and was shot through door - picked just ghe wrong house, that of a paranoid, gun owning, nutter. We will ignore that the hand gun and carbine type short barelled rifle (being pretty useless for hunting at range) were designed for a single purpose, the taking of life, thus making every carrier a potential killer.

But, the paranoia, against both foriegner and fellow citizen, that infests your society is certainly alien to me.

Are you allowed to wear a sword in public?
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Recusant

  • Miscreant Erendrake
  • Administrator
  • Guardian of Reason
  • *****
  • Posts: 5461
  • Gender: Male
  • infidel barbarian
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2017, 10:22:35 AM »
Are you allowed to wear a sword in public?

The law varies from state to state. There is no federal law against wearing a sword, but I think it's generally illegal to bring one into most federal properties unless you're a member of the armed forces in a ceremonial setting.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Ecurb Noselrub

  • No Wall in my name!!!
  • Guardian of Reason
  • *****
  • Posts: 6010
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2017, 11:05:41 AM »
Every society makes its own decisions about what is or is not acceptable.  In the USA, we have agreed that private ownership of weapons is acceptable, and that occasional episodes of violence are acceptable.  The recent event may lead to some tweaking of the regulatory framework, but the right to bear arms is not going to be revoked anytime soon.  It's part of our DNA, and that's the way it's going to stay for the foreseeable future.  There will be more of these events, but we've agreed, as a society, that this is an acceptable consequence.

I was going to say that that was alien to everything I think. Almost immediately I thought of the fact that road vehicles have been a danger to life and limb ever since they were allowed on the public highway. But they have recently become a terrorist weapon of choice, they are easily available and draw little attention until actually used as anti-personnel missiles.

We cannot ban road vehicles so, as you say Bruce, we put up with their dangerous aspects, very, very few use them as weapons. Very, very few of the maybe millions of owners in America use guns to deliberately kill without "acceptable" cause or reason. Though I remrmber the British lad, lost in Miami I think,  who knocked on s door to ask directions and was shot through door - picked just ghe wrong house, that of a paranoid, gun owning, nutter. We will ignore that the hand gun and carbine type short barelled rifle (being pretty useless for hunting at range) were designed for a single purpose, the taking of life, thus making every carrier a potential killer.

But, the paranoia, against both foriegner and fellow citizen, that infests your society is certainly alien to me.

Are you allowed to wear a sword in public?

Up to a 5 inch knife is legal in Texas, but you can open carry guns, so who needs a knife or sword?  Most of us don’t spend much time thinking about it until something like Las Vegas happens.  I realize it seems strange to the rest of the world.

Tank

  • Fed up with stupid.
  • Administrator
  • Excellent and Indefatigable Guardian of Reason
  • *****
  • Posts: 28610
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2017, 12:02:58 PM »
I agree with all you have said. But I feel there is more to the issue. Guns facilitate violence both practically and psychologically in a way only a weapon can. It becomes a focus of intent in a way a pressure cooker can't. A gun is a device that is violence incarnate. To achieve justification for its existence it must do violence or threaten to do violence.

I understand your perspective but I would have to disagree.  I think such a view is akin to stating that people are driven to violence simply because the opportunity exists. From my perspective, a gun is a device - on that we agree.  However, my view of a gun being a threat is largely dependent upon the human wielding it and their intentions.  The same would go for a machete, a baseball bat, or even a screw driver.  I think that it is not a gun problem America has but an social integrity problem and an inability to deal effectively with mental health.

I would be curious to let you elaborate on why you view firearms and a manifestation of violence.
You appear a sane and thoughtful individual  thus you see a gun as a device. The issue that concerns me is the immediacy and level of violence (and thus perceived power) of a gun lowers the threshold of temptation to use a gun. Nobody to my knowledge has ever sat stroking a pressure cooker because it was aspirational to own one or gave them a sense of power.

So if you have a toxic mix of mental health issues and guns why not simply remove the guns? There will still be murders but as many? I strongly doubt that. How many deaths is America willing to pay to keep guns on the streets? Thousands and thousands and thousands by the look of it.

In answer to your question about violence I find it impossible not to associates guns with violence. When has there ever been a scene in a TV show or movie when a gun was portrayed in anything other than in the context of violence? I can't think of one and even if I could it would be one in 1,000, one in 10,000, one in a million? The perception of guns is that they are violence and power incarnate. The TV and movie industry thrive and amplify that perception 24/7/365.

You raise a valid point about Timothy McVeigh, but it's not the whole story. He put a huge amount of thought, effort and most importantly time into what he did. It wasn't an off the cuff action so in terms of day-to-day gun violence it was atypical.

America is soaked with guns. It has poor mental health care. And that combination is killing you by the thousands and will continue as long as owning guns is considered aspirational, glamorous and a significant part of the economy. Many Americans love guns. Think about that, they love guns. It's not just the individuals that are deranged it's pretty much the whole of American society. Apologies if that sounds rude and brutal. :(
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett