Author Topic: Even Alexander Proof of Heaven?  (Read 484 times)

manga

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Even Alexander Proof of Heaven?
« on: May 06, 2017, 11:07:27 AM »
Hello guys,
Recently I read about the Eben Alexander case, a neurosurgeon, who went to Harvard. He claims that he was in a coma, that his brain was 100 percent shut off due to meningitis. I'm sure many have heard of this. There was an article published by Luke Dittrich in 2013 which many atheists took at face value, as they believed that Dittrich proved many flaws in the Alexander story. However, now Alexander himself has come up with a rebuttal, and many of the people Dittrich intervied said that they were mislead by him, and that he changed actual quotes by Alexander. If this is true, do you believe that Alexander went to heaven? He is a neurosurgeon, and says it could not have occured as his brain was coming back online. He says that he has had hundreds of patients who have terrible, painful hallucinations when they come back online. Then he says when he was coming back, he hallucinated that his doctor and his wife were trying to kill him. What do you guys think, is Alexander Proof of afterlife, or is it possible that even a neurosurgeon is incorrect?

Dave

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Re: Even Alexander Proof of Heaven?
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2017, 11:41:47 AM »
Er, nerosurgeon he may be but sounds like what might be called, "trauma dreams" to me. As has been said before, and I know from oersobal experience, that if the brain thinks it is threatened it comes up with all kinds of (ir)rationalities, interpretations, conflicts, conspiracies . . .

I came close to a psychic breakdown just before my heart attack - the attack itself provided a rational reason for all the signs and symptons and so "cured" that aspect of my troubles.

I do not recommend this as a voluntary "cure" for disorders of the psyche! Nor is it a valid voluntary incentive to give up smoking!
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

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Re: Even Alexander Proof of Heaven?
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2017, 12:54:04 PM »
... What do you guys think, is Alexander Proof of afterlife, ...?

Guys...




Father Bruno, remember this?  :smug:
I think it's nice that some of you are taking the time to give manga some wonderful advice, however, I think he/she will just post another Near Death Experience video and ask, do you think this is accurate?

...watch... :reading:
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 07:41:34 PM by Magdalena »


“I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe.” ~Recusant

"Color me fascinated..." ~Asmodean, The Gray God.

Dave

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Re: Even Alexander Proof of Heaven?
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2017, 01:39:16 PM »
Well, Mr Alexanda seems to have drawn some attention ftom sceptics (no surprise there!) and was suspected as being not a very nice person according yo the Wiki entry on him:.

Quote
In a 2013 investigation of Alexander's story and medical background, Esquire magazine reported that before the publication of Proof of Heaven, Alexander had been terminated or suspended from multiple hospital positions, and had been the subject of several malpractice lawsuits, including at least two involving the alteration of medical records to cover up a medical error.[13][14] The magazine also found what it claimed were discrepancies with regard to Alexander's version of events in the book. Among the discrepancies, according to an account of the Esquire article in Forbes, was that "Alexander writes that he slipped into the coma as a result of severe bacterial meningitis and had no higher brain activity, while a doctor who cared for him says the coma was medically induced and the patient was conscious, though hallucinating".

Alexander responded: "I wrote a truthful account of my experiences in Proof of Heaven and have acknowledged in the book both my professional and personal accomplishments and my setbacks. I stand by every word in this book and have made its message the purpose of my life. Esquire's cynical article distorts the facts of my 25-year career as a neurosurgeon and is a textbook example of how unsupported assertions and cherry-picked information can be assembled at the expense of the truth."

So, assuming his medical career has less than a spectacular future what else can he turn his talents and, er, experience to? After all, he needs a living does he not?
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

xSilverPhinx

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Re: Even Alexander Proof of Heaven?
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2017, 01:43:01 PM »
...He claims that he was in a coma, that his brain was 100 percent shut off due to meningitis.

Huh?  :???:


Quote
I'm sure many have heard of this. There was an article published by Luke Dittrich in 2013 which many atheists took at face value, as they believed that Dittrich proved many flaws in the Alexander story. However, now Alexander himself has come up with a rebuttal, and many of the people Dittrich intervied said that they were mislead by him, and that he changed actual quotes by Alexander. If this is true, do you believe that Alexander went to heaven? He is a neurosurgeon, and says it could not have occured as his brain was coming back online. He says that he has had hundreds of patients who have terrible, painful hallucinations when they come back online. Then he says when he was coming back, he hallucinated that his doctor and his wife were trying to kill him.

Manga, I'm wondering what kind of answer you're looking for here. Do you want to believe?

Spoiler: show


Seriously now, as I mentioned to you before, which you ignored, science does not offer proofs of the metaphysical, that which is not part of the natural universe. Some argue that science doesn't offer proofs of anything at all -- it isn't mathematics -- but instead evidences to suggest that things are a certain way.

Now, that being said, there is no reliable evidence to suggest that these people have seen visions of the afterlife. There are evidences to suggest that a dying (read that again: DYING, not DEAD) brain does some weird things.

Quote
What do you guys think, is Alexander Proof of afterlife, or is it possible that even a neurosurgeon is incorrect?

Of course it's possible a neurosurgeon is incorrect. He has the same kind of brain as the rest of us, with the same capacity to generate inner realities under certain conditions.
I'm just a student of the game that they taught me.


Dave

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Re: Even Alexander Proof of Heaven?
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2017, 02:18:01 PM »
Quote
Quoting msnga
What do you guys think, is Alexander Proof of afterlife, or is it possible that even a neurosurgeon is incorrect?

xSP's reply
>:(
Of course it's possible a neurosurgeon is incorrect. He has the same kind of brain as the rest of us, with the same capacity to generate inner realities under certain conditions.

And any person with a scientific mind, and intent, would seek to investigate the cause/origin of his/her experiences (if genuine) firstly in the natural universe. Does his book offer evidence any attempts to set up a "medicsl" hypothesis which he then defeats on logical, rational grounds in favour of the supernatural? Most honest men, if they cannot support any rational theory hding known science will leave the matter for further investigation.

This is a case where Holmes' "When you have eliminated the impossible what remains, however improbable, must be the truth" does not fully apply because, until they invent true mental image recording aparatus, we cannot know what the "possibles" and "impossibles" of the human brain are in this respect. Forming theories and making decisions on incomplete and distorted evidence is, sometimes unfortunately, something the human brain can be good at. It is a survival thing, it is why we sometimes lash out when coming round after unconciousness due to a traumatic experience. The last thing the brain knew was that it was in danger.

That sounds like we are not the masters of our own brains . . . Well . . .
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Icarus

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Re: Even Alexander Proof of Heaven?
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2017, 03:54:57 PM »
Manga, our respected HAF peers are being polite. They are inclined to be as gentle as the case allows. . Let me translate those niceties for you.....>>>Alexander  is by most odds a Bullshit artist. A religiously deluded one at that. Deluded being the operative word. Neurosurgeons with Harvard degrees can be bullshitters as easily as the the uneducated loudmouth down at the local saloon. The Neurosurgeon guy has more credentials, that's all.

manga

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Re: Even Alexander Proof of Heaven?
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2017, 04:20:54 PM »
...He claims that he was in a coma, that his brain was 100 percent shut off due to meningitis.

Huh?  :???:


Quote
I'm sure many have heard of this. There was an article published by Luke Dittrich in 2013 which many atheists took at face value, as they believed that Dittrich proved many flaws in the Alexander story. However, now Alexander himself has come up with a rebuttal, and many of the people Dittrich intervied said that they were mislead by him, and that he changed actual quotes by Alexander. If this is true, do you believe that Alexander went to heaven? He is a neurosurgeon, and says it could not have occured as his brain was coming back online. He says that he has had hundreds of patients who have terrible, painful hallucinations when they come back online. Then he says when he was coming back, he hallucinated that his doctor and his wife were trying to kill him.

Manga, I'm wondering what kind of answer you're looking for here. Do you want to believe?

Spoiler: show


Seriously now, as I mentioned to you before, which you ignored, science does not offer proofs of the metaphysical, that which is not part of the natural universe. Some argue that science doesn't offer proofs of anything at all -- it isn't mathematics -- but instead evidences to suggest that things are a certain way.

Now, that being said, there is no reliable evidence to suggest that these people have seen visions of the afterlife. There are evidences to suggest that a dying (read that again: DYING, not DEAD) brain does some weird things.

Quote
What do you guys think, is Alexander Proof of afterlife, or is it possible that even a neurosurgeon is incorrect?

Of course it's possible a neurosurgeon is incorrect. He has the same kind of brain as the rest of us, with the same capacity to generate inner realities under certain conditions.

Nope, I hope it is not real. Thanks for your answers.

manga

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Re: Even Alexander Proof of Heaven?
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2017, 04:23:17 PM »
Well, Mr Alexanda seems to have drawn some attention ftom sceptics (no surprise there!) and was suspected as being not a very nice person according yo the Wiki entry on him:.

Quote
In a 2013 investigation of Alexander's story and medical background, Esquire magazine reported that before the publication of Proof of Heaven, Alexander had been terminated or suspended from multiple hospital positions, and had been the subject of several malpractice lawsuits, including at least two involving the alteration of medical records to cover up a medical error.[13][14] The magazine also found what it claimed were discrepancies with regard to Alexander's version of events in the book. Among the discrepancies, according to an account of the Esquire article in Forbes, was that "Alexander writes that he slipped into the coma as a result of severe bacterial meningitis and had no higher brain activity, while a doctor who cared for him says the coma was medically induced and the patient was conscious, though hallucinating".

Alexander responded: "I wrote a truthful account of my experiences in Proof of Heaven and have acknowledged in the book both my professional and personal accomplishments and my setbacks. I stand by every word in this book and have made its message the purpose of my life. Esquire's cynical article distorts the facts of my 25-year career as a neurosurgeon and is a textbook example of how unsupported assertions and cherry-picked information can be assembled at the expense of the truth."

So, assuming his medical career has less than a spectacular future what else can he turn his talents and, er, experience to? After all, he needs a living does he not?

I read that, and Alexander did not agree with that article. Even some of the medical staff said that the writer of that article took what they said out of context. I do think it is true that he had committed frauds in the past. I wonder, even if he did look very genuine, maybe he lied.

BooksCatsEtc

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Re: Even Alexander Proof of Heaven?
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2017, 08:40:12 PM »
...He claims that he was in a coma, that his brain was 100 percent shut off due to meningitis.

Huh?  :???:


I ditto that "huh?", and refer manga to Icarus' "bullshitter" post.  If Alexander's brain was 100% shut off, even if his body was being kept working artificially, he'd be dead and not coming back.  100% shut off is the definition of dead.  And that's regardless of whatever the shut off was due to.  So either Alexander, who, as a neurosurgeon, would know better is indeed bullshitting or just off his nut. 

Which brings me to my next point:
Quote from: manga
is it possible that even a neurosurgeon is incorrect?

Of course it's possible!  Why on Earth would you think it would not be? 

Honestly, if this nonsense is bothering you this much I think it might be better for you to make peace with religion until you reach the point where you're more capable of dealing with uncertainties of reality.
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Re: Even Alexander Proof of Heaven?
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2017, 10:02:13 PM »
Honestly, if this nonsense is bothering you this much I think it might be better for you to make peace with religion until you reach the point where you're more capable of dealing with uncertainties of reality.

Yes, I agree. Manga, do you see the endlessly repeating pattern here? You tell us about a report of some figment of someone's feverish imagination and then ask us, a bunch of atheists, what we think. By now you should really know what we are all going to "think" about this bullshit and how we are going to reply.

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Re: Even Alexander Proof of Heaven?
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2017, 12:36:45 AM »
Honestly, if this nonsense is bothering you this much I think it might be better for you to make peace with religion until you reach the point where you're more capable of dealing with uncertainties of reality.

Yes, I agree. Manga, do you see the endlessly repeating pattern here? You tell us about a report of some figment of someone's feverish imagination and then ask us, a bunch of atheists, what we think. By now you should really know what we are all going to "think" about this bullshit and how we are going to reply.

I made this point before with no response from manga. The horse has to WANT to drink.
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hermes2015

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Re: Even Alexander Proof of Heaven?
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2017, 02:14:04 AM »
I made this point before with no response from manga. The horse has to WANT to drink.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think.

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Re: Even Alexander Proof of Heaven?
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2017, 04:14:27 AM »
I made this point before with no response from manga. The horse has to WANT to drink.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think.

Especially if it's easily spooked.
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Re: Even Alexander Proof of Heaven?
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2017, 07:12:00 AM »
Hello guys,
Recently I read about the Eben Alexander case, a neurosurgeon, who went to Harvard. He claims that he was in a coma, that his brain was 100 percent shut off due to meningitis. I'm sure many have heard of this. There was an article published by Luke Dittrich in 2013 which many atheists took at face value, as they believed that Dittrich proved many flaws in the Alexander story. However, now Alexander himself has come up with a rebuttal, and many of the people Dittrich intervied said that they were mislead by him, and that he changed actual quotes by Alexander. If this is true, do you believe that Alexander went to heaven? He is a neurosurgeon, and says it could not have occurred as his brain was coming back online. He says that he has had hundreds of patients who have terrible, painful hallucinations when they come back online. Then he says when he was coming back, he hallucinated that his doctor and his wife were trying to kill him. What do you guys think, is Alexander Proof of afterlife, or is it possible that even a neurosurgeon is incorrect?

You spend an inordinate amount of time on this stuff it seems.  Don't waste your life worrying about the afterlife - in time you'll have your answer, we all will.  Maybe spend more time enjoying being an adolescent and less time obsessing over what happens after you die. 

Posting the same kind of stuff over and over again won't elicit any novel responses from the group here.  You've heard the same kind of answers over and over again.  You're caught in this never-ending cycle for which there will obviously be no satisfactory resolution for you.