Author Topic: Hello Manga  (Read 973 times)

manga

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Re: Hello Manga
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2017, 01:48:43 PM »
Manga, you are evidently a very intelligent person. However you evidently also have an active insgination that has been biased by some aspects in your life.

You therefore have a combination of traits that many would envy, that could give you a boost in science or art, including writing, or a combination of these. Perhaps even psychology or philosophy, the science and art, respectively, of unravelling human thought and understanding processes. As Father Bruno and others have said, please review what we atheists hold to be believable and how we "filter" this out of competing ideas.

Science does not have answers for all things - yet. A little mystery adds spice to life and stimulates thought, but it remains mystery, the currently unexplainable awaiting explanation. It is not a fact until it is explained and repeated or observed by others in an independent or objective manner. Religion is very rarely fully independent or objective, perhaps never in the final analysis. Science will probably never find all the answers, but answers there will be.  But, if there is no explainable, repeatable evidence and it does not directly impinge on life-as-lived then keep it on the "mystery shelf" and get on with living. You can always take it off the shelf for another look with greater experience and knowledge at a later date.

This does not deny the beauty existing in our universe, whether natural or man-made. That includes the physical and that purely of-the-mind. There is also a place for whimsy.

I tend towards the critical frame of mind but this does not stop me appreciating (OK, being a total fan of) science fiction, that often disregards our currently understood view of the scientifically possible, and fantasy and magic as creations of the human mind. This causes me no conflict, when I close the book, or turn off the video, the real world takes over again. I even find wisdom in the Bible, once all the "woo" is disregarded or the allegory is translated into modern terms.

From our grester ages it is all too easy to look back on the conflicts of youth with some frustration, even disdain. Even wen we have children of our own we still lose the full emotional understanding of those turbulent years for some. You can only come to your own understanding in the end, we can only offer advice from our personal points of view, firmed of our own genetic traits and experience/education. You have to weigh this with your own and find that which is "comfortable", which offers the least conflicts and fears. (Added later) However, please be wary of taking the "easy path", that line which "goes with the common flow", religion relies on that sheep-like behaviour for its power. You are a unique human and deserve to view youeelf as such, compromising and co-operating with others where necessary but preserving your independence where that does not seriously challenge your life.

PS, my appologies for any typing errors, I have a sight defect that causes me problems when typing on a tablet (as now). I edit but do miss some errors in large lumps of text.

Thank you very much for your answer, it was kind, and thorough. I have noticed a common pattern on these forms that many atheists say that science does not have the answer for all things. I am beginning to realize that more and more. There are many things that we cannot explain, and just because we can't doesn't make them necessarily supernatural.  I think I just let my fear overcome rational thinking.

manga

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Re: Hello Manga
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2017, 01:51:37 PM »
You've been very patient and level headed manga, thank you. And I apologize for our rudeness. Moving on, I know this was addressed by Bruno but I'd like to take it in a slightly different direction.

Quote
I would be so happy if I knew for a fact that there was no life after death, then I could enjoy my life more again.

What Father Bruno said sounds objectively correct. That you are afraid of the Christian narrative of life after death. But there are other ideas about death from other religions, not just Christianity and Athiesm. Buddhists and Hindu's believe in reincarnation. That's the idea that you come back after you die as another animal. Some Native American tribes believe life is a loop and you eventually come back to where you were before. The Aztecs believed in a different sort of heaven where you move up and down different, how should I say this, "levels" where the different forces of nature take place.

The point is, you don't have to believe in the Christian idea of hell to believe there might be something after you die. All civilizations have done it so you're not alone. Even athiests sometimes wonder if we are wrong and there really might be something after death. But we never know until it happens and until then, for me, I want to spend this life as if it's the only one I have. Because it might be the only one. And if it's the only one, I want to make it a good one and not filled with turd.

Edited for clarity

That makes sense, I am only afraid because these NDEs seem to be the best kind of proof we have for afterlife (even though many would say they aren't proof at all), and usually the NDEs we read about reflect Christian faith. I do think it could be true that they could vary culturally. I think that it's true that we should assume that this is our only life, until objective evidence proves otherwise.

manga

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Re: Hello Manga
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2017, 01:54:45 PM »
Thank you for replying Manga, it goes a long way in establishing some trust with us.

I read your reply earlier, and then went to the gym to work out and while sweating my ass off I was thinking of a reply to your post, but I don't think I could come close to expressing myself as clearly and eloquently as Recusant did in your other introduction thread.

He brought up many of the things I was thinking of in my own reply to you, so I won't waste time repeating the same things, but I think the most important part of his response, and one I was going to mention was with regards to the very excellent responses you have received in various threads by other members of the forum, especially the comments of SolidSquid, and MariaEvri as outlined below in this quote from Recusant's reply.

Quote
In various threads here people have provided references to sources which present evidence that contradicts the NDE narrative of genuine visits to the supposed afterlife. I thought the "A Ghost in the Machine" set of essays that MariaEvri posted was particularly good, as were various posts by solidsquid. The scientific evidence shows that our minds are a function of our brains, while there is no scientific evidence whatsoever for the existence of a non-physical entity that is independent of our body (a soul) that will survive the death of the body.

I think a good piece of advice as mentioned is for you is to go back and reread those threads, and focus on the links provided and try to grasp and understand what they are explaining to you, and then come back with follow up questions to those links and not bother posting additional material on what you feel are relevant NDE's or OBE's.

One other thing, at the end of your introduction post you say the following.

Quote
I would be so happy if I knew for a fact that there was no life after death, then I could enjoy my life more again.

I don't believe it is life after death you fear so much, but the christian narrative itself which states you have to live your life according to various religious standards and sets of rules.

It's the failure to live by these so called rules, such as going to church, being a non-believer, hating homosexuals, etc...that has you in a bind, not fear of an after-life. You're allowing yourself to be chained to these testaments of faith not because you embrace them, or believe them, but because you fear not to do so will result in punishment.

Answer me this Manga...whose the better person, the one who chooses not to steal money from an unsuspecting stranger because they know to do so is wrong based on the simple principle of fairness and equity, or the one who wants to steal, but doesn't because only becuase they fear the punishment of a vengeful god?

Hope to see you around the other threads, maybe as suggested you take a peak at the bookclub in the media section and pick up a free copy of the Carl Sagan book we're all reading, and then join us in an after discussion.

Peace
thank you for your answer, and I will look into the links that have been provided. I would have to agree that an atheist who does not steal is better than a theist who does not because they are afraid that they may be punished, as that would not be genuine. I think that if we ever do confirm for a fact that NDEs are visions of hell are not real, that the most logical explanation for the concept of hell then, would have been to control people who were stealing, murdering, raping, etc. It could be that fear would have been the only method at that time to keep society in check.

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Re: Hello Manga
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2017, 02:34:36 PM »
You've been very patient and level headed manga, thank you. And I apologize for our rudeness. Moving on, I know this was addressed by Bruno but I'd like to take it in a slightly different direction.

Quote
I would be so happy if I knew for a fact that there was no life after death, then I could enjoy my life more again.

What Father Bruno said sounds objectively correct. That you are afraid of the Christian narrative of life after death. But there are other ideas about death from other religions, not just Christianity and Athiesm. Buddhists and Hindu's believe in reincarnation. That's the idea that you come back after you die as another animal. Some Native American tribes believe life is a loop and you eventually come back to where you were before. The Aztecs believed in a different sort of heaven where you move up and down different, how should I say this, "levels" where the different forces of nature take place.

The point is, you don't have to believe in the Christian idea of hell to believe there might be something after you die. All civilizations have done it so you're not alone. Even athiests sometimes wonder if we are wrong and there really might be something after death. But we never know until it happens and until then, for me, I want to spend this life as if it's the only one I have. Because it might be the only one. And if it's the only one, I want to make it a good one and not filled with turd.

Edited for clarity

That makes sense, I am only afraid because these NDEs seem to be the best kind of proof we have for afterlife (even though many would say they aren't proof at all), and usually the NDEs we read about reflect Christian faith. I do think it could be true that they could vary culturally. I think that it's true that we should assume that this is our only life, until objective evidence proves otherwise.

That is a good point. I haven't looked into it myself but they say that near death experiences always follow the religion the person is in. For example Catholics in Mexico might see Mary or Buddhists might see, I don't know, Buddha. I think NDEs might vary culturally because if not, why have a different religion with a different idea of the afterlife? Shouldn't it all be the same if we are all seeing the same? Anyways, I think you should continue looking into NDEs and look for some from different cultures that are not so related to ours. Like Asian, African, & Aboriginals from around the world. Because ike you said, the ones we read about reflect christianity but we know there are many other religions around the world, so we know there is an attentional bias and maybe a confirmation bias that needs to be rooted out to see the truer picture.

You see when you do research, you need to consider all you can, otherwise you are just shutting out other information that might help you understand what it is you want to understand (or shut out information that might help you answer your question). Be skeptical sure, but give yourself a good reason based on truth for that. And give your beliefs a good reason for existing, also based on truth. And make it verifiable to you and to other people​ you might inform. That makes it much more believable when someone who tries to prove you wrong and ends up showing to themself, and everyone else, that you're right. If they aren't willing to check your work, then they're not willing to move beyond their limited view.
But, uh...well there it is.
"Nothing's a struggle, but everything is a challenge"-Anon
Hate Is Weakness

manga

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Re: Hello Manga
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2017, 08:32:21 PM »
You've been very patient and level headed manga, thank you. And I apologize for our rudeness. Moving on, I know this was addressed by Bruno but I'd like to take it in a slightly different direction.

Quote
I would be so happy if I knew for a fact that there was no life after death, then I could enjoy my life more again.

What Father Bruno said sounds objectively correct. That you are afraid of the Christian narrative of life after death. But there are other ideas about death from other religions, not just Christianity and Athiesm. Buddhists and Hindu's believe in reincarnation. That's the idea that you come back after you die as another animal. Some Native American tribes believe life is a loop and you eventually come back to where you were before. The Aztecs believed in a different sort of heaven where you move up and down different, how should I say this, "levels" where the different forces of nature take place.

The point is, you don't have to believe in the Christian idea of hell to believe there might be something after you die. All civilizations have done it so you're not alone. Even athiests sometimes wonder if we are wrong and there really might be something after death. But we never know until it happens and until then, for me, I want to spend this life as if it's the only one I have. Because it might be the only one. And if it's the only one, I want to make it a good one and not filled with turd.

Edited for clarity

That makes sense, I am only afraid because these NDEs seem to be the best kind of proof we have for afterlife (even though many would say they aren't proof at all), and usually the NDEs we read about reflect Christian faith. I do think it could be true that they could vary culturally. I think that it's true that we should assume that this is our only life, until objective evidence proves otherwise.

That is a good point. I haven't looked into it myself but they say that near death experiences always follow the religion the person is in. For example Catholics in Mexico might see Mary or Buddhists might see, I don't know, Buddha. I think NDEs might vary culturally because if not, why have a different religion with a different idea of the afterlife? Shouldn't it all be the same if we are all seeing the same? Anyways, I think you should continue looking into NDEs and look for some from different cultures that are not so related to ours. Like Asian, African, & Aboriginals from around the world. Because ike you said, the ones we read about reflect christianity but we know there are many other religions around the world, so we know there is an attentional bias and maybe a confirmation bias that needs to be rooted out to see the truer picture.

You see when you do research, you need to consider all you can, otherwise you are just shutting out other information that might help you understand what it is you want to understand (or shut out information that might help you answer your question). Be skeptical sure, but give yourself a good reason based on truth for that. And give your beliefs a good reason for existing, also based on truth. And make it verifiable to you and to other people​ you might inform. That makes it much more believable when someone who tries to prove you wrong and ends up showing to themself, and everyone else, that you're right. If they aren't willing to check your work, then they're not willing to move beyond their limited view.

Dr. Long would argue there are no cultural differences, as everyone sees the same things but interprets them differently. However, other NDE researchers do say that it varies from culture to culture. I have found one or two accounts from the Hindu faith which differ. One thing I find weird is that I have never (despite hours of research) found an NDE where a Muslim meets Muhammad. It seems that Christians see Jesus sometimes, and Muslims have similar NDEs without a particular deity shown. There have also been no cases where Buddhists see Buddha. Of course, Christians take the fact that there are no known accounts of meetings with Muhammad or Buddha to mean that Christianity is "obviously" correct, and that since they see Jesus, that he really is the son of God. Although this can be difficult to explain, I know that there are only about 30 NDE cases actually published from the Muslim world, from Iran and Uzbekistan. None of these mentioned Muhammad, but still, 30 cases compared to a few thousand isn't really a fair comparison. Although I would need verification on this, it could be that some Muslims would not even want to mention if they did in fact see Muhammad during an NDE. I emailed Matt Dillahunty about this, and he thought that even if it were true that Christians saw Jesus but Muslims didn't see Muhammad, that it wouldn't necessarily prove Christianity correct.

Dave

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Re: Hello Manga
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2017, 08:47:42 PM »
Quote
I have noticed a common pattern on these forms that many atheists say that science does not have the answer for all things. I am beginning to realize that more and more.

But, remember also, Manga, that this also applies - if an answer is eventually found it will be a scientifically based one. If "God" is eventually found to exist "He" will then be a scientific fact!

Until then "He" is another part of that huge cloud of the unknown, open to interpretation by those willing to do so, for spiritual or mundane purposes.. But answers are out there waiting to be discovered. Mayve you, in your studies, will find one or two! But remember the difference between an abstract concept and a valid hypothesis. The forner nsy be inspirational but latter is more limely to be the true foundation for discovery.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 09:34:28 PM by Gloucester »
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Dave

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Re: Hello Manga
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2017, 09:16:00 PM »
Quote
Dr. Long would argue there are no cultural differences, as everyone sees the same things but interprets them differently.

If so the doctor has ensured  that he has a get-out clause for almost anything he wants to claim!

I feel it is that very cultural difference that causes the different perceptions. In the witchetty grub I see a fat, living, squirming lava that I would think twice before handling. The Australian aborigine sees a tasty snack. Once he has bitten the hard head parts off and spat them out. Yet, toast it to a golden brown and...

When I see religious art I consider first its quality of work*, then its symbolic nature and value and how that is perceived by others. It may even move me with its beauty, but it will have no "spiritual" value beyond a similar reaction to a purely secular work of art. The English of the King James bible is glorious, but the meaning of the concepts behind those words is a matter for interpretation into the "real" world for me.

"Real" in quotes because every person's perception is, in detail, unique.

*I have the misoirtune to be as much a "technician" as I am a "philosopher" (though not brilliant at either) - the two live uncomfortably together at times. At other times they produce interesting (to me) hybrid ideas!
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Arturo

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Re: Hello Manga
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2017, 09:28:13 PM »
You've been very patient and level headed manga, thank you. And I apologize for our rudeness. Moving on, I know this was addressed by Bruno but I'd like to take it in a slightly different direction.

Quote
I would be so happy if I knew for a fact that there was no life after death, then I could enjoy my life more again.

What Father Bruno said sounds objectively correct. That you are afraid of the Christian narrative of life after death. But there are other ideas about death from other religions, not just Christianity and Athiesm. Buddhists and Hindu's believe in reincarnation. That's the idea that you come back after you die as another animal. Some Native American tribes believe life is a loop and you eventually come back to where you were before. The Aztecs believed in a different sort of heaven where you move up and down different, how should I say this, "levels" where the different forces of nature take place.

The point is, you don't have to believe in the Christian idea of hell to believe there might be something after you die. All civilizations have done it so you're not alone. Even athiests sometimes wonder if we are wrong and there really might be something after death. But we never know until it happens and until then, for me, I want to spend this life as if it's the only one I have. Because it might be the only one. And if it's the only one, I want to make it a good one and not filled with turd.

Edited for clarity

That makes sense, I am only afraid because these NDEs seem to be the best kind of proof we have for afterlife (even though many would say they aren't proof at all), and usually the NDEs we read about reflect Christian faith. I do think it could be true that they could vary culturally. I think that it's true that we should assume that this is our only life, until objective evidence proves otherwise.

That is a good point. I haven't looked into it myself but they say that near death experiences always follow the religion the person is in. For example Catholics in Mexico might see Mary or Buddhists might see, I don't know, Buddha. I think NDEs might vary culturally because if not, why have a different religion with a different idea of the afterlife? Shouldn't it all be the same if we are all seeing the same? Anyways, I think you should continue looking into NDEs and look for some from different cultures that are not so related to ours. Like Asian, African, & Aboriginals from around the world. Because ike you said, the ones we read about reflect christianity but we know there are many other religions around the world, so we know there is an attentional bias and maybe a confirmation bias that needs to be rooted out to see the truer picture.

You see when you do research, you need to consider all you can, otherwise you are just shutting out other information that might help you understand what it is you want to understand (or shut out information that might help you answer your question). Be skeptical sure, but give yourself a good reason based on truth for that. And give your beliefs a good reason for existing, also based on truth. And make it verifiable to you and to other people​ you might inform. That makes it much more believable when someone who tries to prove you wrong and ends up showing to themself, and everyone else, that you're right. If they aren't willing to check your work, then they're not willing to move beyond their limited view.

Dr. Long would argue there are no cultural differences, as everyone sees the same things but interprets them differently. However, other NDE researchers do say that it varies from culture to culture. I have found one or two accounts from the Hindu faith which differ. One thing I find weird is that I have never (despite hours of research) found an NDE where a Muslim meets Muhammad. It seems that Christians see Jesus sometimes, and Muslims have similar NDEs without a particular deity shown. There have also been no cases where Buddhists see Buddha. Of course, Christians take the fact that there are no known accounts of meetings with Muhammad or Buddha to mean that Christianity is "obviously" correct, and that since they see Jesus, that he really is the son of God. Although this can be difficult to explain, I know that there are only about 30 NDE cases actually published from the Muslim world, from Iran and Uzbekistan. None of these mentioned Muhammad, but still, 30 cases compared to a few thousand isn't really a fair comparison. Although I would need verification on this, it could be that some Muslims would not even want to mention if they did in fact see Muhammad during an NDE. I emailed Matt Dillahunty about this, and he thought that even if it were true that Christians saw Jesus but Muslims didn't see Muhammad, that it wouldn't necessarily prove Christianity correct.

Yes, Muslims are not allowed to have images of Muhammad but they seem to take this as not seeing Muhammad according to your story. Buddhists aren't particularly concerned with dieties as they see them as one in a state that anyone can achieve, so they're just one of them. I think Buddhist NDEs are more like they see themselves floating around somewhere that is completely foriegn to what we know.

But I also think it's a bit ego centric to think because other religions don't see what Christians consider their central figures to be, then their religion is correct. Because the Christians are defining the other religions, they are more or less projecting their own religious identity onto the other ones. So they aren't trying to look beyond their own nose. Which can be problematic if you want to be factual. But it is something they are indoctrinated to believe because they are told all religions stem from theirs. So what I think the question here is, what if it's not? How can you be sure your religion is the one that started it all? How do you know where religions even came from at all? What if in the beginning of religions, there was more than one religion like there is now? What if there were no religions?

Anyways I think I have done enough ranting.
But, uh...well there it is.
"Nothing's a struggle, but everything is a challenge"-Anon
Hate Is Weakness