Author Topic: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults  (Read 811 times)

manga

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Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
« on: April 14, 2017, 01:25:52 AM »
there are many NDE cases where a child below age 10 will have an NDE, which is exactly the same as an adult case. They will see a tunnel, a light, Jesus, Mary, some report sitting on Jesus's lap, etc. How could.a 4 year old who doesn't know he or she is about to die (let's say they drown or get hit by a.car from behind) have an OBE and see all this religious imagery? My guess would have been that they might have seen a tunnel and light as that could be a biological factor of what the brain does under stress, and maybe their parents kind of swayed them into the whole Jesus direction? These kids have interviews and can be found all over the internet. However, we are told that the kids tell the nurse right after the experience so that the kids.could not have told their parents. I know some may lie, but assuming some don't intentionally lie, what would you say about that? Dr. Morse did tests on kids who were on meds and drugs and not near death, found they didn't have the same experiences.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 01:55:34 AM by manga »

solidsquid

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Just curious, why the obsession with NDEs?

manga

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Just curious, why the obsession with NDEs?

to me that is the best evidence of a possible soul. If debunked, I wouldn't believe in souls.

solidsquid

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Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2017, 02:10:16 AM »
The problem you'll run into with this kind of stuff, as with lots of other "evidence" is that is relies primarily upon subjective experience through the terrible filter of post-hoc subjective analysis and recall. 

You mention kids and their NDE experiences.  It reminds me of the 1980s when an explosion of horrible stories relating to child abuse by children at the hands of "Satanic cults" during strange rituals.  Parents were arrested and some even charged and put in jail.  It was all fabrication owing largely to false memories and confabulation elicited through the actions of therapists, police detectives, relatives, and others.  None of it ever happened.

If you have some time read a bit about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse

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Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2017, 02:18:23 AM »
As I've written elsewhere, I can't be bothered with this stuff until real scientists take an interest in it (and that doesn't include a pediatrician who's been convicted of waterboarding a child as part of his NDE experiments), but I can suggest some reading:

The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark, by Carl Sagan (thanks, solidsquid, for reminding me of this one)

Sleeping with Extra-Terrestrials: The Rise of Irrationalism and Perils of Piety, by Wendy Kaminer

Then there's this:  rationalwiki: NDEs
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Just curious, why the obsession with NDEs?

to me that is the best evidence of a possible soul. If debunked, I wouldn't believe in souls.

You are aware there's no requirement not to believe in a soul, right?  There are atheists who believe in souls, afterlives and/or the supernatural, just not gods.  I don't get it myself, and it's not commonplace for atheists, but it it known.
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Magdalena

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Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2017, 04:02:05 AM »
:suspicious:



Lekatt!
Yes! 
manga reminds me of Lekatt!

You guys remember him? That's all he wanted to talk about, NDE...and then he left.  :-\  I think we just ran out of things to talk about.  :-\



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Dragonia

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Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2017, 01:10:27 PM »
there are many NDE cases where a child below age 10 will have an NDE, which is exactly the same as an adult case. They will see a tunnel, a light, Jesus, Mary, some report sitting on Jesus's lap, etc. How could.a 4 year old who doesn't know he or she is about to die (let's say they drown or get hit by a.car from behind) have an OBE and see all this religious imagery? My guess would have been that they might have seen a tunnel and light as that could be a biological factor of what the brain does under stress, and maybe their parents kind of swayed them into the whole Jesus direction? These kids have interviews and can be found all over the internet. However, we are told that the kids tell the nurse right after the experience so that the kids.could not have told their parents. I know some may lie, but assuming some don't intentionally lie, what would you say about that? Dr. Morse did tests on kids who were on meds and drugs and not near death, found they didn't have the same experiences.
Manga, there's so much I would love to talk about with you. First,  most 4 year olds who have NDEs don't in fact "know they are about to die". Because they are 4. But that doesn't matter at all, because there are good explanations as to the physiology of NDEs. And yes, it has to do with what a person's brain and body are doing at the time.
Second, from what I've read of your posts, I get the feeling that you don't understand (indeed nobody has a full understanding) how powerful our brains are, and how much credit we should give our mind/body connection. I'm not talking anything spiritual here, I'm just talking the science of how our brains work. (Most of us....) I think humanity is still at the beginning of understanding our inner workings of brain activity, and it's a fun, fascinating subject! But give a person's brain credit for these experiences, not their "soul". Because.......
Third, look around for stories of NDEs from other countries, cultures and belief systems. It may be eye opening for you. There are similarities, but you will see that others' experiences vary, according to their culture and their Gods. Does this mean that all religions are true? Nope. It means that people, young and old, are influenced, even in death, by what they believe.
And finally, may I posit that you, reading stuff on the crazy Internet, will not be able to prove a soul exists. It's an interesting topic, but really, it shouldn't be a deal breaker for you either way. Believe in souls if you want! There's truly no way at this point to prove or disprove the existence of souls. And I feel like this question is driving you crazy.
I encourage you to look to things that are relevant to living and discerning whether God is real. Look at logic, look at archaeology, listen to smart people, like Matt Dillahunty or Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens. Read stuff like Why Wont God Heal Amputees (a weird name, but excellent ideas, questions and philosophy on the question of Gods). There is a world of information out there for you to find that actually matters to this God question.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 01:23:26 PM by Tank »
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Tank

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Just curious, why the obsession with NDEs?

to me that is the best evidence of a possible soul. If debunked, I wouldn't believe in souls.
How does the visual cortex behave as it stops working?
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
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Tank

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Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2017, 01:29:20 PM »
The problem you'll run into with this kind of stuff, as with lots of other "evidence" is that is relies primarily upon subjective experience through the terrible filter of post-hoc subjective analysis and recall. 

You mention kids and their NDE experiences.  It reminds me of the 1980s when an explosion of horrible stories relating to child abuse by children at the hands of "Satanic cults" during strange rituals.  Parents were arrested and some even charged and put in jail.  It was all fabrication owing largely to false memories and confabulation elicited through the actions of therapists, police detectives, relatives, and others.  None of it ever happened.

If you have some time read a bit about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse
This.

 Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.

Occam's razor is your friend when it comes to deciding which choice is probably the right one.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett

Davin

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Just curious, why the obsession with NDEs?

to me that is the best evidence of a possible soul. If debunked, I wouldn't believe in souls.
You should probably hear about NDEs being experienced by people who are not near death. Pilots experiencing extreme gravity for instance.


Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Pasta Chick

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Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2017, 06:51:12 PM »
I don't see what knowledge of ones own death has to do with anything. Unless your secular parents have managed to keep you completely under a rock since birth, odds are you're very well aware of the dominant religious ideology in your area by 4.

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Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2017, 07:23:42 PM »
I don't see what knowledge of ones own death has to do with anything. Unless your secular parents have managed to keep you completely under a rock since birth, odds are you're very well aware of the dominant religious ideology in your area by 4.

That might work for some countries. In England, at least, religious matters do not play a large part in daily life or peoples thoughts. When I was a kid (1944 >) Sunday schools were often convenient places to get rid of the kids for a couple of hours and schools had RE that was biased towards xtianity, but most parents only went to church for weddings, baptisms and funerals. Outside of those occasions most mentions of god were "blasphemous".

It has not changed much that I can see. But, with schools here becoming "accademies", often with skme kind of religious affiliation, this may change.

Listening to Americans being interviewed, say after some incident, god seems to be invoked quite often. So perhaps religion is something at the front of the mind more over there than over here?
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Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2017, 07:34:52 PM »
:suspicious:



Lekatt!
Yes! 
manga reminds me of Lekatt!

You guys remember him? That's all he wanted to talk about, NDE...and then he left.  :-\  I think we just ran out of things to talk about.  :-\

Now that you mention him, I suddenly do.  Can't for the life of me remember any of his posts tho.
Sandy

  
"I think this is the prettiest world -- as long as you don't mind a little dying, how could there be a day in your whole life that doesn't have its splash of happiness?"  from The Kingfisher, by Mary Oliver

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Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2017, 10:14:38 PM »
:suspicious:



Lekatt!
Yes! 
manga reminds me of Lekatt!

You guys remember him? That's all he wanted to talk about, NDE...and then he left.  :-\  I think we just ran out of things to talk about.  :-\

Now that you mention him, I suddenly do.  Can't for the life of me remember any of his posts tho.

Every post he made was about NDE. I think he wrote a book about it.


“I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe.” ~Recusant

"Color me fascinated..." ~Asmodean, The Gray God.