Author Topic: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.  (Read 1373 times)

Velma

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2017, 01:44:52 AM »
wait so do you think this person is lying?
Humans have an endless capacity to deceive themselves and others. She may truly believe that what she experienced was and NDE - or she may be hoping for the attention that claiming to have had an NDE might bring.
Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of the astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy.~Carl Sagan

manga

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2017, 01:55:23 AM »
wait so do you think this person is lying?
Humans have an endless capacity to deceive themselves and others. She may truly believe that what she experienced was and NDE - or she may be hoping for the attention that claiming to have had an NDE might bring.

Does this mean you don't believe the testimony?

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2017, 01:56:15 AM »

wait so do you think this person is lying?

Well there's no reason to believe that they are telling the truth...
But, uh...well there it is.
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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2017, 02:05:52 AM »
Blind Man Paints by Touch



This individual was sighted until late childhood but did not paint prior to losing his vision entirely. I find it quite a testament to the power of touch. Combine that with things like discriptive writing, the brains ability to hallucinate, and the fact that someone who has blind from birth doesn't actually have any way to verify if the sky he saw was actually blue (I mean technically that's an issue for sighted people as well)...

BUT here is the point. There has been cases of people who were born blind claiming to "see' during their NDEs. How could this be, if they were always blind? Tests have been done on blind people. Those who could see earlier in their lives can see in their dreams. Those that were born blind could not. How then, could someone during an NDE see anything, unless they are lying, or a soul actually exists?
That is what I am confused about. Does this prove a soul in any way?

How do you know what they are claiming to "See" during their NDE's is actually what we would quantify as seeing? Maybe what they think or claim to see is only what they imagine "seeing" is actually like...

Anyway Magna you need to define what you mean by "soul" first, what is it you actually mean descriptively when you use this word?

I myself and I'm sure most of the folks here on this forum reject any notion of a "soul" or "spirit" as separate from the activity of the brain.

Francis Crick, codiscoverer of the structure of DNA, referred to it as “The Astonishing Hypothesis".  In Crick’s words, “You, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal iden­tity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules."



I also love this quote by the character Rust Cohle from True Detective. It mirrors my own personal thoughts on the subject fairly accurately, and I refer to often.

Quote
"I think human consciousness is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware. Nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself - we are creatures that should not exist by natural law... We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self, that accretion of sensory experience and feelings, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody's nobody...


Maybe, and quite possibly this misstep in evolution has happened elsewhere, probably it has, odds are highly in favor of it happening elsewhere in the universe, as nearly probable as life itself...but really all we are is self-aware, and because of this we find it hard to accept that this self-awarness will one day end, permanently.

Life continues on though, as it has for millions and millions of years, and that itself, that simple realization should be reassuring to us, but for many people this reality, this actual truth scares them.
 

I have never read, or listen to one NDE that made me think what I heard or read was true, I think most likely that the large majority of these incidents are lies, pure fabrication on the part of those who would go to any lengths to try and get people to believe as they do.
No different than any of the faith-healer's you see regularly on television pretending to heal people, or those who claim they speak or talk directly with god.

These people are lying manga,...how do I know they are lying you ask?

I can't as a person heal someone merely by placing my hands on their body, neither can anyone else for that matter, nor can I as a person speak directly to a god or gods (I've tried, believe me), but I can lie, and guess what, so can every other human on this planet.

We all do it, some more than others, but every single one of us possesses this ability to deceive...so when I hear stories about people possessing amazing supernatural powers to travel outside the body, or live on after death, or even magically heal others with merely a touch of their hand I am left with only one conclusion, and only one because there is absolutely no proof whatsoever of the former being real I'm left with only one conclusion and that is they are most assuredly lying. (Although I will grant that there may be cases where people have experienced bizarre or seemingly unbelievable dreams of what you might refer to as NDE's caused by some chemical or biological occurrence within the brain, such as might occur due to lack of oxygen, etc..)

I think we have nothing to lose by letting go of our human belief in the soul, in fact I would state that we have everything to gain by doing so,... by shaking off the shackles of our fears and embracing the warm truth of our reality, maybe we can begin to work on building a better world in which all of us may live better lives for the short time each of us has, and ensure those who come after us have the same.

wait so do you think this person is lying?

She certainly could be, people, all of us lie everyday...on the witness stand, after they've sworn to tell the truth they'll do it regardless of the consequences.

Ordained priests do it when asked if they've sexually raped children, so did the Roman Church when asked if it protected priest and allowed them to continue molesting simply to avoid scandal.

Most people do it not only daily, but frequently. See UMass study here.

I don't know this woman, and can't really determine a whole lot from an edited 5-10 minute video, and maybe what she is describing is what happen to her brain as it began to shut down due to lack of oxygen, and she is simply trying to not only remembering the visions or images she thought she may have seen, but interpret them and give them meaning as we all try to do when we wake up after an extremely strange or weird dream.

I was extremely sick once with a high temperature an had some really strange, and sometimes frightful dreams due to my high fever...when I was young I had recurring nightmares which would cause me to wake up screaming in total fear. Same dream, same distorted images, for years on end.

But you do realize that you don't actually "See" anything when you dream...your brain simply takes bits and pieces of stored "data" and more or less projects or transmits it into our mind. When you are asleep, and certainly when your eyes are closed there in no visual receptors, basically the visual cortex of our mind is shut off. However, in the cases of people who are blind if the "visual cortex" of the brain is artificially stimulated, perhaps by trauma, drugs or a brain starved of oxygen it's possible the brain will produce images.
Again eyes are only visual receptors, the brain of a blind person still has the capability to produce images.

That's the reason you'll never, ever see anything that is new in a dream, only familiar or old images from your past.

Again people lie all the time. Are you saying this man is telling the truth?
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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2017, 03:59:46 AM »
I'm really enjoying everyone's posts.  :popcorn:


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Velma

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2017, 06:07:34 AM »
wait so do you think this person is lying?
Humans have an endless capacity to deceive themselves and others. She may truly believe that what she experienced was and NDE - or she may be hoping for the attention that claiming to have had an NDE might bring.

Does this mean you don't believe the testimony?
It is entirely possible that something happened to she decided to call an NDE. I've seen things due to blood loss and high fever, as I mentioned elsewhere. I can easily see how her circumstances at the time could have triggered such "visions." Regardless of what happened, it doesn't add up to proof of anything.
Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of the astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy.~Carl Sagan

manga

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2017, 06:26:20 AM »
wait so do you think this person is lying?
Humans have an endless capacity to deceive themselves and others. She may truly believe that what she experienced was and NDE - or she may be hoping for the attention that claiming to have had an NDE might bring.

Does this mean you don't believe the testimony?
It is entirely possible that something happened to she decided to call an NDE. I've seen things due to blood loss and high fever, as I mentioned elsewhere. I can easily see how her circumstances at the time could have triggered such "visions." Regardless of what happened, it doesn't add up to proof of anything.

I think that is a rational answer, the only thing I am troubled by is the fact that she was blind since birth, meaning her brain shouldn't necessarily be able to conjure up imagery because she has never seen anything. Blind people can't see in dreams, so why would her brain suddenly allow her to see anything?

hermes2015

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2017, 06:33:59 AM »
... Blind people can't see in dreams ...

How do you know?

manga

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2017, 07:02:10 AM »
... Blind people can't see in dreams ...

How do you know?

Numerous studies have been done and this lady claimed she never saw anything, including dreams.

Dave

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2017, 07:22:58 AM »
... Blind people can't see in dreams ...

How do you know?

Numerous studies have been done and this lady claimed she never saw anything, including dreams.

That seems to be supported by what I have found so far on the Web.

As for it's relevance to so called NDEs though . . . Did wonder if the function of the visual cortext attrophied completely in the blind-from-birth, assuming that the blindness was not due to mal- or non- formation of the cortext in the first place.
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Dave

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2017, 08:14:47 AM »
Phosphenes seem interesting:

Quote
A phosphene is a phenomenon characterized by the experience of seeing light without light actually entering the eye. The word phosphene comes from the Greek words phos (light) and phainein (to show).[1] Phosphenes that are induced by movement or sound may be associated with optic neuritis.[2][3]

Phosphenes can be directly induced by mechanical, electrical, or magnetic stimulation of the retina or visual cortex as well as by random firing of cells in the visual system. Phosphenes have also been reported by meditators[4] (commonly called nimitta), people who go for long periods without visual stimulation (also known as the prisoner's cinema), or those who are using psychedelic drugs.[5]

But do blind-from-birth people see them?

I get them if my blood pressure gets very low.

Later: have not read all of this ,Visual Cortex Activity in Early and Late Blind People, but a quick scan seems to indicate that some stimuli provoke action in the visual areas of the brain in both early and late blind.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 08:26:58 AM by Gloucester »
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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2017, 09:04:54 AM »
Manga, you still haven't defined what you mean by soul, what is a soul?
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Recusant

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2017, 01:18:57 PM »
To me, it is telling that manga has completely ignored solidsquid's excellent investigation of the background of the "Epoch Times" story. There is nothing trustworthy in the contents of the article; nothing solid that can serve as the basis of a rational discussion of the topic. This is a recurring theme in the all the related fields of "out-of-body experiences," "near-death experiences," and disembodied consciousness in general. Lacking verifiable evidence they will always remain in the realm of "what if," and while that may be entertaining in the way that a cannabis-fueled bullshit session is, no rational conclusion can be drawn.

People who want to believe in these things are grasping at the straws offered by charlatans and those who've convinced themselves that they're real. They will never be deterred by those who point out the fact that all there is supporting the belief is spurious logic based on flimsy or misrepresented evidence.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 01:29:45 PM by Recusant »
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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2017, 04:13:33 PM »
I don;t know if this belongs here and if it;s mentioned before sorry
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/a-ghost-in-the-machine/
a good essay on the non existence of the soul
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manga

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2017, 08:20:46 PM »
To me, it is telling that manga has completely ignored solidsquid's excellent investigation of the background of the "Epoch Times" story. There is nothing trustworthy in the contents of the article; nothing solid that can serve as the basis of a rational discussion of the topic. This is a recurring theme in the all the related fields of "out-of-body experiences," "near-death experiences," and disembodied consciousness in general. Lacking verifiable evidence they will always remain in the realm of "what if," and while that may be entertaining in the way that a cannabis-fueled bullshit session is, no rational conclusion can be drawn.

People who want to believe in these things are grasping at the straws offered by charlatans and those who've convinced themselves that they're real. They will never be deterred by those who point out the fact that all there is supporting the belief is spurious logic based on flimsy or misrepresented evidence.

I know epoch times aren't the greatest, but there is a video of the lady telling the story, and why would a blind woman  lie about seeing things?