Third World America?

[Asmodean]

By the way, wow... I think I may have unleashed a literary gargoyle. :-/

[Firebird]

Oh, and do invest in weapons and coal. I don't know shit about stock trading, but somehow weapons and coal seem... Safe. At least in the near future.

Weapons, perhaps. Not coal. Coal is still fucked, at least in the US, because natural gas is so cheap now. Which is fine by me. I'm not against frakking completely if it's properly regulated, but it should be considered a transition to something even cleaner, including more nuclear.

[Dark Lightning]

As a US citizen, I am appalled that the chump got elected. My hope it that the swamp government is just enough of a monolithic juggernaut that even the chump can't jack it up too badly before his term runs out. Of course, "monolithic" really isn't a decent description. Maybe "loose amorphous mass with its own gravitational field holding it together".

[Dave]

As a US citizen, I am appalled that the chump got elected. My hope it that the swamp government is just enough of a monolithic juggernaut that even the chump can't jack it up too badly before his term runs out. Of course, "monolithic" really isn't a decent description. Maybe "loose amorphous mass with its own gravitational field holding it together".

Hmm, more like a whirl-pool with a bottomless hole in tbe middle? Held together merely by the energy of its own dynamics with little reference to the real world.

Perhaps all governments are black holes into which everything sinks. If so Trump finding a stopper would be a good thing if he had altruistic motives. However could "Trump" and "altruism" appear in the same sentence without something negating in between, such as "has no" or "is a stranger to"?

Certainly the American model of governance seems far too complex and almost designed to generate inter-departmental competition rather than cooperation. But, then, America seems to be established on competition.

[Asmodean]

Perhaps all governments are black holes into which everything sinks.

Not really... No government is perfect, I think, but the Norwegian government, at least, does not fit that description.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Certainly the American model of governance seems far too complex and almost designed to generate inter-departmental competition rather than cooperation. But, then, America seems to be established on competition.

After our experience with the English, distrust of government is part of our DNA.  Thanks, Mum.

[Bad Penny II]

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[Dave]

Certainly the American model of governance seems far too complex and almost designed to generate inter-departmental competition rather than cooperation. But, then, America seems to be established on competition.

After our experience with the English, distrust of government is part of our DNA.  Thanks, Mum.

It was not distrust of government that I was alluding to but the multiplicity of, say, security agencies - from the locally employed police to Homeland Security and the NSA etc just how many, potentially competing, "empires" are there?

I think Thoreau was possibly a main instigator of the distrust of government as a national movement, aided later by the influx of refugees from authoratarian and totalitarian European countries, criminal types from Italy and Ireland (and other places). Not forgetting the descedants of the freed slaves and victims of the segreation condoned by the state authorities and perhaps ignored by the national government fir a long time. And now almost any other immigrant who has to look over his or her shoulder and wonder if the next attack is coming from someone in authority.

Chips the size of a sequoia threading through America's history from before the Pilgrim Fathers (what about he mothers?) even decided to emigrate?

But it is not only The People versus The Government, it is the disparate (and desperate?) diversity of ethnic origins, many still hanging on to 19thC values, still not yet "E Pluribus Unum" and looking askance at each other. And I know that this is not a universal situation, there are places of peace and neighborliness, but it is the handle by which both bad media and bad politicians shake the whole structure, thus keeping the negatives in the spotlight.

And the fat cats are not above stirring if there is a buck or three million in it for them, just so long as the cost of civil unrest does not depress the markets. "Hey, need more armored vests and riot suppressing systems? Got them right here, ready to go!"

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Certainly the American model of governance seems far too complex and almost designed to generate inter-departmental competition rather than cooperation. But, then, America seems to be established on competition.

After our experience with the English, distrust of government is part of our DNA.  Thanks, Mum.

It was not distrust of government that I was alluding to but the multiplicity of, say, security agencies - from the locally employed police to Homeland Security and the NSA etc just how many, potentially competing, "empires" are there?

I think Thoreau was possibly a main instigator of the distrust of government as a national movement, aided later by the influx of refugees from authoratarian and totalitarian European countries, criminal types from Italy and Ireland (and other places). Not forgetting the descedants of the freed slaves and victims of the segreation condoned by the state authorities and perhaps ignored by the national government fir a long time. And now almost any other immigrant who has to look over his or her shoulder and wonder if the next attack is coming from someone in authority.

Chips the size of a sequoia threading through America's history from before the Pilgrim Fathers (what about he mothers?) even decided to emigrate?

But it is not only The People versus The Government, it is the disparate (and desperate?) diversity of ethnic origins, many still hanging on to 19thC values, still not yet "E Pluribus Unum" and looking askance at each other. And I know that this is not a universal situation, there are places of peace and neighborliness, but it is the handle by which both bad media and bad politicians shake the whole structure, thus keeping the negatives in the spotlight.

And the fat cats are not above stirring if there is a buck or three million in it for them, just so long as the cost of civil unrest does not depress the markets. "Hey, need more armored vests and riot suppressing systems? Got them right here, ready to go!"

I live here, and it's still a great place to live.  Maybe some disagree, but I don't see much civil unrest.  It's magnified by the media, but the actual reality is that the vast majority of people get up every day and go to work or school.  Then they enjoy their weekends.  Maybe Trump will change all that - I admit to being concerned.  But this is no third world nation.  When was the last time you were here?

[Asmodean]

Doesn't "Third World" refer to countries which did not take sides in the Cold War? Because in that case, the USA is certainly not a Third World nation.

[Arturo]

Doesn't "Third World" refer to countries which did not take sides in the Cold War? Because in that case, the USA is certainly not a Third World nation.

I think that's the original definition, and then it evolved into meaning poor and developing countries.

[Dave]

Doesn't "Third World" refer to countries which did not take sides in the Cold War? Because in that case, the USA is certainly not a Third World nation.

Maybe, but the current usage means "undeveloped".

And, I agree thst America is far from undeveloped. However it does, in its health systems at least, seem to generate 3rd world type problems for itself - minor illness (thatcan turn major) not being treated because the sufferers cannot afford insurance or trestment.

I did not look the phrase up before but now that I have it seems that Arianna Huffington is of a similar opinion.

I am sure most Americans live in nice neighbourhoods, but how often do they look into the cracks in their society? I used to fo something potentially  very dangerous 40 years ago - spend a night walking round central London, amongst the hidden night people. Scary but gives one a different view of the world. But even there the sick and injured could, if they wanted to, go to any hospital and get some sort of treatment. Once when I was in hospital for a minor process a homeless person (an American by his accent) was brought in (stinking from lack of hygeine), treated, showered, given a haircut and beard trim, fed, reclothed and - when considered no longer in immediate danger - seen by a social worker and allowed to leave. And I wondered if he had ever paid National Insurance or tax, it made no difference - he was given the same treatment and respect the rest of us had.

Perhaps, with its mega-rich and very-poor America has more notable contrasts than most European countries. I did say that this was a handle that the media and politicians could get a grip of. Even in fiction the image of a violent, socially divided America seems to be the most common and that "tradition" goes back at least over my lifetime, from the western films of the 50s, with their shooting and fighting, to the likes of "Rambo" and beyond. There are times when Americans seem to celebrate that image of themselves. Certainly they advertise it well.

Individual Americans are just like individuals all over the world, good and bad. Perhaps it is America's still pre-eminent postion as a world power that places it in the world's eye so much. Its image, as a nation, will be determined by how it is seen by others. It has, so far, been sure enough of its own power and self-inage to largely ignore the opinion of the world.

Will Trump improve that image or make it worse?

[Asmodean]

I think that's the original definition, and then it evolved into meaning poor and developing countries.

Yeah, well... I think that may have to do with A and B largely sharing geography.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

A border wall in Texas would make us look more like a Third World Country.  It would become an ugly graffiti magnet, especially on the Mexican side. A $25 billion  graffiti wall. Great.

[Dave]

A border wall in Texas would make us look more like a Third World Country.  It would become an ugly graffiti magnet, especially on the Mexican side. A $25 billion  graffiti wall. Great.

Yeah, there was some great graffiti on the Berlin Wall!