Author Topic: University quotas  (Read 537 times)

xSilverPhinx

  • Non Dvcor
  • Global Moderator
  • The Cure for Boredom is Curiosity. There is No Cure For Curiosity.
  • *****
  • Posts: 11567
  • Gender: Female
  • On The Warpath
University quotas
« on: November 02, 2016, 06:16:31 PM »
In order to get a place in a federal or state public university in Brazil (which are tuition-free and more prestigious than their private counterparts) you have to pass an entrance exam. So far, so good. However, universities are obligated to allocate a certain number of places to minority groups, a policy I still don't know if I agree with. These quotists generally come from the black community and indigenous population, which are usually poorer portions of society. Some years ago, the government passed a law which allocates a quota to public school students as well, which usually go to those who study in military schools, which are considered to be excellent. The thing is, most that go to those schools are middle class, which sort of defeats the whole purpose of helping minority and disadvantaged groups get into a good university.

So I guess my question is, do you agree with this system?
I'm just a student of the game that they taught me.


Recusant

  • Miscreant Erendrake
  • Administrator
  • Guardian of Reason
  • *****
  • Posts: 5450
  • Gender: Male
  • infidel barbarian
Re: University quotas
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2016, 06:28:34 PM »
As described the policy (a quota for public school students) sounds of dubious value. Do you know what the reason was for instituting the policy?
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


xSilverPhinx

  • Non Dvcor
  • Global Moderator
  • The Cure for Boredom is Curiosity. There is No Cure For Curiosity.
  • *****
  • Posts: 11567
  • Gender: Female
  • On The Warpath
Re: University quotas
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2016, 06:40:28 PM »
:sad sigh: I don't know for sure, it seems like just another palliative measure the government inflicted on the country just to make it seem like they're doing something worthwhile. In Portuguese we have an expression for this kind of thing, "tapa-buraco" which means "pot-hole filling". Instead of resurfacing the road and fixing the problem they just throw some dirt over it, knowing full well that all it takes is one rainy storm and there will be a hole again.

I suspect, though, that it was an attempt to get more votes, not that voting currently matters in this country.
I'm just a student of the game that they taught me.


xSilverPhinx

  • Non Dvcor
  • Global Moderator
  • The Cure for Boredom is Curiosity. There is No Cure For Curiosity.
  • *****
  • Posts: 11567
  • Gender: Female
  • On The Warpath
Re: University quotas
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2016, 05:39:00 PM »
In a year or two, 50% of all federal and state university places will be reserved for people who completed their high school education in a public high school, whether lousy (as most are) or excellent (military schools).

Military schools select students coming from non-military families via entrance exams but I don't know how one gets a place in a normal public school. Possibly for newcomers it's first come, first served. What could happen is many middle class families that could afford to put their children in a private school will opt to send them to public schools instead, which will mean less places for the disadvantaged. Besides this, they can pay for entrance exam prep courses, something poorer sections of society can't do. As far as I know, public schools don't filter out students based on family wages.

It's all just so broken.     
I'm just a student of the game that they taught me.


Icarus

  • The wise one.
  • Blessing Her Holy Hooves
  • *****
  • Posts: 4379
Re: University quotas
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2016, 03:31:31 PM »
We have had some of that kind of thinking here in the U.S.  It is a noble effort to encourage the disadvantaged to realize some of their potential. Once and a while it works so well  that it makes us believe in the concept.  There are some really gifted minds there in the slums. 

In my own experience as a volunteer tutor for high school dropouts.  About one in ten of the students are worth the effort.  Among the other nine there are some really good minds that are more than capable of doing the work. The sad reality is that there is something about the cultural mindset that tells them that academic adequacy, even excellence, is somehow.... racist or something like that. I was not good enough to disabuse them of that so destructive  closely held belief. For that I will go to my grave in disappointment for my own inability to sufficiently influence them. A long time ago there was an agency called United negro college fund. Their often quoted masthead was: A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

I am not ashamed to say that I have actually cried about student X or Y or Z who had the demonstrated cerebral capacity to excel but not the emotional or cultural capacity to do so.  The one out of ten who did succeed made me so proud that I could burst. 


xSilverPhinx

  • Non Dvcor
  • Global Moderator
  • The Cure for Boredom is Curiosity. There is No Cure For Curiosity.
  • *****
  • Posts: 11567
  • Gender: Female
  • On The Warpath
Re: University quotas
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2016, 03:16:45 AM »
Do American universities have similar quotas?

It just seems to me that the rationale behind such quotas is the assumption that, for instance, people who studied in public schools here aren't as capable. If  the fault lies with the public education system, which it most probably does, then why not fix that instead? Giving out 50% of university places to those who achieve a lower grade on entrance exams just because they come from a bad public school is unfair to those who achieve a higher grade and it doesn't fix the root of the problem, which is the fact that public schools (excluding military schools) are lousy.   
I'm just a student of the game that they taught me.


Icarus

  • The wise one.
  • Blessing Her Holy Hooves
  • *****
  • Posts: 4379
Re: University quotas
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2016, 10:05:28 PM »
There was a time in the recent past when some of our elite universities had a quota system. A certain percentage of applicants would be admitted even though their qualifications were inferior. Those students would be admitted because they were members of a targeted minority group.  Some of our elite universities also admit particularly bright students who do not have the financial capacity to pay the exorbitant tuition fees. We do have colleges whose annual tuition and book cost is maybe $60,000.

We also have universities that admit dumb asses that come from wealthy or influential families. If your mother or father graduated from that university, you can be admitted as a "legacy" participant.

Arturo

  • Do Something Crazy!
  • Touched by His Noodly Appendage
  • *****
  • Posts: 2539
  • Gender: Male
  • Atheist, Humanist, and Champion
    • You two dig up, dig up dinosaurs?
Re: University quotas
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2016, 01:12:36 AM »
Do American universities have similar quotas?
[/qoute]

I'm not familiar with how you are using the word "qouta". I'm not seeing the problem, mainly because I'm not in Brazil, with having a quota with public school students and minorities. Unless the new public school law overrides the old minority law, then yeah I'd see the problem.

If the fault lies with the public education system, which it most probably does, then why not fix that instead?

Well the thing with that, is something that far spread is such a hassle to tackle and hard to find a solution for (at least here in the US) that people will tire of the process quickly and fall into apathy (heh).
But, uh...well there it is.
"Nothing's a struggle, but everything is a challenge"-Anon
Hate Is Weakness

xSilverPhinx

  • Non Dvcor
  • Global Moderator
  • The Cure for Boredom is Curiosity. There is No Cure For Curiosity.
  • *****
  • Posts: 11567
  • Gender: Female
  • On The Warpath
Re: University quotas
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2016, 03:29:27 AM »
We also have universities that admit dumb asses that come from wealthy or influential families. If your mother or father graduated from that university, you can be admitted as a "legacy" participant.

That's really dumb.  ::) Nothing to be proud of, really.

I'm just a student of the game that they taught me.


xSilverPhinx

  • Non Dvcor
  • Global Moderator
  • The Cure for Boredom is Curiosity. There is No Cure For Curiosity.
  • *****
  • Posts: 11567
  • Gender: Female
  • On The Warpath
Re: University quotas
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2016, 06:10:35 AM »
I'm not familiar with how you are using the word "qouta". I'm not seeing the problem, mainly because I'm not in Brazil, with having a quota with public school students and minorities. Unless the new public school law overrides the old minority law, then yeah I'd see the problem.

My problem with quota system is it's broken:

1) Public school quota - this doesn't necessarily favour the poorer sectors of society since people who could pay for private school put their kids in public schools so that they could benefit from the system. They pay for prep courses on the side.
                                    - people from public military schools (which are high quality schools) benefit from this system. They are perfectly capable of disputing for a place along with those who come from private schools as military schools are much better than most private schools.

2) Quota for minority groups (blacks and indigenous people) - this also doesn't necessarily favour the poorer sectors of society as middle class kids from private schools are the ones that get most places. IMO since they went to the same schools should compete with their peers, not get some special advantage.     

Quote
Well the thing with that, is something that far spread is such a hassle to tackle and hard to find a solution for (at least here in the US) that people will tire of the process quickly and fall into apathy (heh).

I think it might be that way here too.
I'm just a student of the game that they taught me.


Davin

  • Guardian of Reason
  • *****
  • Posts: 6411
  • Gender: Male
  • (o°-°)=o o(o*-°)
    • DevPirates
Re: University quotas
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2016, 07:26:04 AM »
Do American universities have similar quotas?
Some do, some that did have been removed due to lawsuits that were ruled on that essentially said that racism is over in this country, so there is no more need to worry about minorities being discriminated against.

Quote from: xSilverPhinx
It just seems to me that the rationale behind such quotas is the assumption that, for instance, people who studied in public schools here aren't as capable.
This is a fair assessment.

Quote from: xSilverPhinx
If  the fault lies with the public education system, which it most probably does, then why not fix that instead?
Laws get passed to improve schools fairly easily, because who doesn't want to improve the schools? For the first year or so of that law, a good portion of the money actually goes to the schools. But the way the laws are worded, they slowly start taking the money allotted to schools and using it for other things, like back scratching projects and tax cuts to get votes from the stupid conservative fucks.

Quote from: xSilverPhinx
Giving out 50% of university places to those who achieve a lower grade on entrance exams just because they come from a bad public school is unfair to those who achieve a higher grade and it doesn't fix the root of the problem, which is the fact that public schools (excluding military schools) are lousy.
The point is that, "just fixing high schools" is not something that is easy to do, since the problem is the result of many complicated causes.

This segment by John Oliver is very close to the mark.


Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Magdalena

  • Butterfly of Doom.
  • Has Finally Learned to Not Feed The Trolls
  • *****
  • Posts: 6775
  • Gender: Female
  • Angry hippies need to smoke cheap weed.
Re: University quotas
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2016, 09:45:33 AM »
^^^
That's a great video, Davin, thanks for posting it.


“I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe.” ~Recusant

"Color me fascinated..." ~Asmodean, The Gray God.

xSilverPhinx

  • Non Dvcor
  • Global Moderator
  • The Cure for Boredom is Curiosity. There is No Cure For Curiosity.
  • *****
  • Posts: 11567
  • Gender: Female
  • On The Warpath
Re: University quotas
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2016, 01:29:09 PM »
 :blush: I still haven't watched the video, Davin. I'll get round to it soon. :smilenod:
I'm just a student of the game that they taught me.