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[jcm]

Gorgedoc:

Why would god create a monkey? Why would god create a flea? Cancer? Hurricanes? Conjoined Twins? Retards? Gays? Radiation? Black holes? Comets? Asteroids? Seems to me that God’s design is full of useless stuff. How do any of the above benefit humans? If this universe was create with humans in mind, then why is this universe trying to kill us off. The human body has defenses from skin to immune system. Too hot, you die…too cold, you die. The earth has a protective layer from uv radiation and a magnetic field to deflect charged particles. If mars had these features, then mars would support life. Did god try and fail at keeping life on mars? If there was never life on mars, then what is it doing there? What does mars or any other planet do for us humans? Non-earth planets are not mentioned in the bible as a future home for humans. Seems that all stars are good for is navigation. If earth is our home, then what is with all the other stuff? Why would the bible not offer any foreknowledge concerning our 15 billion light year backyard? Well it was not mention because the people who wrote the bible could only described the universe from the view point on earth. The earth is not a typical place in the universe, but the bible is telling us that it is home. But the universe is our home too and a typical place in the universe is not one that supports life. So what is it doing there? Does god like to be so wasteful? Or is it that the universe just exists and the result is the random state we see today? The universe has turned out the way is and is stable, for now. One day the sun will explode, the earth will be destroyed and then what? Where will man live? No more life on earth, no more earth, but the universe will carry on until it goes away. What a flawed design. Why is the real universe not like the one described in the bible -- The earth created first at the center, the sun rises over it and the stars fixed in the heavens. Based on what we know so far, the universe was not created with any foresight. In a human’s limited view of the world it would be natural to assume the universe was created for us and that it is stable. However I feel the evidence points to a universe that is here for a while and will one day be gone. God’s design is broken and needs fixing or is it that humans are not the ultimate goal, or is there even a goal at all?

[tacoma_kyle]

Gorgedoc:

Seems to me that God’s design is full of useless stuff.

What about your appendix? It can get infected and you die.

1-way ticket with no guilt cause your the victim! [of god]


If you are not yet clear, stare at the clouds til you see the virgin mary then you'll get it. Shouldnt take too long. :roll:

[MommaSquid]

Well done, jcm.





Rational questions are like green kryptonite to the believers.

[Marke]

Gorgedoc:

Why would god create a monkey? Why would god create a flea? Cancer? Hurricanes? Conjoined Twins? Retards? Gays? Radiation? Black holes? Comets? Asteroids? Seems to me that God’s design is full of useless stuff.

How do any of the above benefit humans? If this universe was create with humans in mind, then why is this universe trying to kill us off. The human body has defenses from skin to immune system. Too hot, you die…too cold, you die. The earth has a protective layer from uv radiation and a magnetic field to deflect charged particles. If mars had these features, then mars would support life. Did god try and fail at keeping life on mars? If there was never life on mars, then what is it doing there? What does mars or any other planet do for us humans?

 Non-earth planets are not mentioned in the bible as a future home for humans. Seems that all stars are good for is navigation. If earth is our home, then what is with all the other stuff? Why would the bible not offer any foreknowledge concerning our 15 billion light year backyard?

Well it was not mention because the people who wrote the bible could only described the universe from the view point on earth. The earth is not a typical place in the universe, but the bible is telling us that it is home. But the universe is our home too and a typical place in the universe is not one that supports life. So what is it doing there? Does god like to be so wasteful?

 Or is it that the universe just exists and the result is the random state we see today? The universe has turned out the way is and is stable, for now. One day the sun will explode, the earth will be destroyed and then what? Where will man live? No more life on earth, no more earth, but the universe will carry on until it goes away. What a flawed design.

 Why is the real universe not like the one described in the bible -- The earth created first at the center, the sun rises over it and the stars fixed in the heavens. Based on what we know so far, the universe was not created with any foresight. In a human’s limited view of the world it would be natural to assume the universe was created for us and that it is stable. However I feel the evidence points to a universe that is here for a while and will one day be gone.

God’s design is broken and needs fixing or is it that humans are not the ultimate goal, or is there even a goal at all?

great writing, just don't be afraid of the enter key, paragraphs my man, paragraphs! Anyway, I added some breaks for myself and others. Hope you don't mind.

[jcm]

great writing, just don't be afraid of the enter key, paragraphs my man, paragraphs! Anyway, I added some breaks for myself and others. Hope you don't mind.

thanks Marke! wow, That does look a lot better.

Rational questions are like green kryptonite to the believers.

Thanks MommaSquid, cool picture!

Very true. I like to dig a little deeper with important issues. Questions are not blasphemous or the work of the devil, they’re just questions. I’ve always seen Christians like people who sell Amway products. It is better to not ask a lot of questions, just follow the system and you will be rewarded….yeah right.
   

What about your appendix? It can get infected and you die.

tacoma_kyle:
Yeah and that too!...I also like what Degrasse Tyson said...why do we use the same hole to eat and breathe. Why not two separate holes so you can’t choke on food!

[McQ]

Well spake, jcm. Nice pic, Momma!

[jcm]

Well spake, jcm. Nice pic, Momma!

Thanks McQ! But I think he ran off.

[SteveS]

Okay, so I bounded over here to join in the refutation.  I know I missed the boat by a few days, but some of gorgedoc's words got my dander up.  Good job to those who have answered already - you guys make me a "proud happy atheist"!  :wink:  

Anyway, here's a bit of my thinking that got triggered off in the other thread (I felt like sharing, :wink: ):

God does not exist? Does that computer you are looking at have a maker? How do you know it had a maker? You’ve never met him, probably never thought about him. But you know she or he must exist. A computer could not have appeared by a random set of events, but needed a body of knowledge to be created. The rest of the world is no different. Your computer, your car, that watch on your wrist are all the result of a thoughtful process that has taken eons of evolution with resulting experience, knowledge and creation. On the most fundamental level, your computer is one of the fantastic results of the Big Bang.

This is all "argument from design".  jcm has done a nice job elucidating the obvious issues with the design argument (kudos, jcm), but even more there is a scientific understanding that undermines this position.  The entire science of evolution has demonstrated, to wonderful effect, how an unintelligent (i.e. not consciously directed) process can produce a result that "looks" designed.  To accept that things are designed simply because they appear that way is tantamount to accepting only a shallow understanding of a deeper process.

But it begs the question, how did everything in the universe suddenly come from nothing? Where did the Big Bang come from? I can’t remember ever seeing anything appear from nothing, can you? Believing in God may be a bit hard at times, but I do not have enough faith to be an atheist and believe the universe spontaneously popped out of thin air just because.

Which begs the question, "how do you know there ever was a nothing"?  Assuming the universe arose from nothing is a seriously flawed assumption because it seems impossible.  To make my point, a theist would have to consider how they feel about god.  How could a god suddenly appear from nothing?  The answer the theist would give is that god has always existed - there never was a nothing.  But if there never was a nothing, then why could the universe not have always existed?  Why was there a nothing before the universe?  Modern scientists are proposing a cyclical model of the universe which is looking good - I say it is very possible, if not likely, that the universe has always existed in some form.

If you can be 100% certain that everything in the universe spontaneously and independently appeared from nothing and you know for an absolute fact that God does not exist, than you should be an atheist. But this is of course impossible and not logical because it cannot be proven. So the only logical thing to do is to believe in God.

This appears to me to be very deeply flawed logic.  Believing in something does not require proof to be logical.  There is a difference between belief and knowledge.  And, logic can defend an unproven position --- if I'm inside with no windows to the outside, I can never-the-less believe it is raining outside because all the people coming inside from outside are wet and shaking water off their umbrellas.  This would be a belief that is logically justifiable and based on circumstantial evidence.  But, it does not constitute 100% certain proof that it is, in fact, raining outside.  The belief that it is, though, is logically supportable.  If I have proof then I no longer require belief, because I have proof.  So, once I become 100% certain of something I can say that I know it to be true and belief is neither here nor there.

To show that the logic of this argument is flawed all I have to do is flip the argument around and say "You cannot have 100% certain proof that 'God' exists, so the only logical thing to do is to become an atheist".  And this is the rub --- we can't be 100% certain that god exists, and we cannot be 100% certain that god does not exist, yet depending on how we phrase the question your logic leads us to be an atheist or a theist.  Since I can't be 100% certain god exists, I must be an atheist.  But, since I can't be 100% certain that god does not exist, I must be a theist.  Yet, I cannot logically accept two contradictory conclusions.  Which demonstrates the absurdity of the argument.

You have everything to gain by believing in God and everything to lose by not believing.

Pascal's wager.  This one is just as philosophically bankrupt as the argument from design.

The rest of the original argument is an emotional appeal to believe because it will make you feel good.  What's wrong with basing belief on whether or not a thing is true, rather than whether or not it is a beautiful idea?

My two cents.     Sorry I missed the boat and he left already.