Homosexuality and Christianity | Split from TWC Introduction Thread

[TheWalkingContradiction]

Hello and welcome from a Christian.  Sorry for my fundie bretheren.  

Not an issue.  If you accept me as if, I will most gladly do the same for you.

Besides, I get along with my parents, sister, and Christian colleagues at work since they are all quite liberal.  In fact, when one of my colleagues was new a few years ago, she heard through the grapevine that I was gay and introduced herself by saying that her minister was gay and against Fundamentalists.  Quite an odd thing to hear from someone I had known for less than 30 seconds...

I do get regularly attacked by Christians in my extended family and one person in particular in my volunteer work, the latter being the person whose latest attack convinced me to join this board to retain my sanity...  But I know that not every Christian is like this.  I don't like the religion and fear its effect on people, but I do respect good people who happen to be Christian (or Jewish or Muslim or...)  It's a matter of agreeing to disagree.

I also have a gay friend who is a very conservative Christian and is thus celibate--and approaching 40.  This is very hard for me, as I feel bad for him.  (Not that I should talk, as I am single and won't say how long it has been since I have had sex; I tend to be very sexually conservative too...  Anyway...)  This is what he wants, but he is otherwise a decent guy.  He is also a teacher, and we share a lot of our experiences.

[AnimatedDirt]

Hello and welcome from a Christian.  Sorry for my fundie bretheren.  

Not an issue.  If you accept me as if, I will most gladly do the same for you.

Besides, I get along with my parents, sister, and Christian colleagues at work since they are all quite liberal.  In fact, when one of my colleagues was new a few years ago, she heard through the grapevine that I was gay and introduced herself by saying that her minister was gay and against Fundamentalists.  Quite an odd thing to hear from someone I had known for less than 30 seconds...

I do get regularly attacked by Christians in my extended family and one person in particular in my volunteer work, the latter being the person whose latest attack convinced me to join this board to retain my sanity...  But I know that not every Christian is like this.  I don't like the religion and fear its effect on people, but I do respect good people who happen to be Christian (or Jewish or Muslim or...)  It's a matter of agreeing to disagree.

I also have a gay friend who is a very conservative Christian and is thus celibate--and approaching 40.  This is very hard for me, as I feel bad for him.  (Not that I should talk, as I am single and won't say how long it has been since I have had sex; I tend to be very sexually conservative too...  Anyway...)  This is what he wants, but he is otherwise a decent guy.  He is also a teacher, and we share a lot of our experiences.

I won't lie to you and say I don't have issue with the sexual acts of the gay, but I have the same issue with the sexual acts of the straight.  I put no extra sin on the gay that indulge in sexual activity as they see fit.  Me being a straight male does not make me a better "Christian" than a gay male Christian...or non-Christian for that matter just because my sexual acts involve myself and a female/wife.  Within my belief system, we all need the same amount of Christ IN US to be saved.  I hope to say that is not offensive.  Feel free to question me on this if it is. 

[TheWalkingContradiction]

Hello and welcome from a Christian.  Sorry for my fundie bretheren.  

Not an issue.  If you accept me as if, I will most gladly do the same for you.

Besides, I get along with my parents, sister, and Christian colleagues at work since they are all quite liberal.  In fact, when one of my colleagues was new a few years ago, she heard through the grapevine that I was gay and introduced herself by saying that her minister was gay and against Fundamentalists.  Quite an odd thing to hear from someone I had known for less than 30 seconds...

I do get regularly attacked by Christians in my extended family and one person in particular in my volunteer work, the latter being the person whose latest attack convinced me to join this board to retain my sanity...  But I know that not every Christian is like this.  I don't like the religion and fear its effect on people, but I do respect good people who happen to be Christian (or Jewish or Muslim or...)  It's a matter of agreeing to disagree.

I also have a gay friend who is a very conservative Christian and is thus celibate--and approaching 40.  This is very hard for me, as I feel bad for him.  (Not that I should talk, as I am single and won't say how long it has been since I have had sex; I tend to be very sexually conservative too...  Anyway...)  This is what he wants, but he is otherwise a decent guy.  He is also a teacher, and we share a lot of our experiences.

I won't lie to you and say I don't have issue with the sexual acts of the gay, but I have the same issue with the sexual acts of the straight.  I put no extra sin on the gay that indulge in sexual activity as they see fit.  Me being a straight male does not make me a better "Christian" than a gay male Christian...or non-Christian for that matter just because my sexual acts involve myself and a female/wife.  Within my belief system, we all need the same amount of Christ IN US to be saved.  I hope to say that is not offensive.  Feel free to question me on this if it is.  

I wish you had stuck with good wishes, particularly since I have, for the most part, stayed in this lounge section of the board where I am supposed to relax and take it easy.  I did not come here to debate Christians; the presence of Christians and their criticism of me is what made me leave my last atheist board.  --SIGH!--  End of honeymoon day two on the board.  Now I have to get down to serious business.

What you wrote is not offensive on the surface--but on some levels it is quite offensive since this is the word game many Christians play to fake empathy for gays but also stick in a little preaching.  It goes something like this: "Gay sex is not any more of a sin than anything else we all do, and we all need to be saved from the penalty of our sins."  

There are only a handful of references in the Bible that may or may not be about gay people.  See the first paragraph of my post here as to why these references may not be about gays at all:  

http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=9833.msg180029#msg180029

I only scratch the surface, but many argue this point--not just the rabbis I talked about.  

I understand that as a Christian you probably want the words of a Christian minister who has done extensive research and supposedly speaks to Jesus.  Here is one, as I don't have the time or desire to do a long search for many.   (You can, as there are many out there).  I know this piece and have used it in my volunteer counseling with young gays, some of whom are Christians who would not benefit from my atheist perspective.  It is called "A Letter to Louise: A Biblical Affirmation of Homosexuality."  The author is a pro-gay Baptist minister--a married heterosexual in his 90s, I might add.    

http://godmademegay.com/  

Click on "Six Points" from the menu atop the page and then scroll down to "1. There is nothing in the Bible about homosexuality or homosexual people."

That being said...  Even if the verses in question are about gays (which I do not believe they are), there are many, many more references to helping the poor--and that is something most of our Bible thumpers don't really do.  Given the sheer number of references, to which should our attention be drawn?  And yet, it is the thumpers who vote away jobs and health care and allow the downtrodden to rot in the street who donate incredible amounts to anti-gay advertising, agencies, and lobbyists.    

Now, on being saved: I don't believe I need to be saved from anything other than dirty laundry.

Next: Why would you have issue with the sexual acts of gay people?  Many heterosexuals practice sodomy and oral sex, the things gays are stereotyped as doing.  Some gays (myself included) have never had it or put it up the ass and never want to; some straight guys, on the other hand, love it when their girlfriends and wives put fingers, beaded necklaces, and other items up there.  So, who is the sodomite?    

Also, why is it a sin to kiss a man but not a sin to dash the heads of infants against a wall/rock?  The Bible is full of dashing.  And if you take a look at The Book of Job, you see how petty and vindictive the Judeo-Christian god is--and all to prove to the devil that he is right.  Why would an omnipotent being need to prove anything, and why would he care what the devil thought of him?  And how could he think that replacing dead children with new children will appease a father who loved the original children?

This is who I am supposed to follow?  This is who calls my love a sin?  I will never dash an infant's head, but I will give a man a deep kiss.

[DeterminedJuliet]

I'm sorry, TheWalkingContradiction (can I call you TWC? We sometimes do initials here for brevity), it wasn't really appropriate for AD to start with this here.  
Things have been a little... weird around the forum lately. Normally the introductions are just left to introductions.  

[Buddy]

What DJ said. Stuff like this is not normal.

[Dobermonster]

Hi TWC....

I'll post my welcome here, kill two bird with one stone, etc. So...Welcome! I hope you'll stick around, it's a nice place and there's usually something interesting posted to think about.

Since we got right onto the gay thing, I'll not bandy about. I'm a bisexual woman who has also been clocked with the sin stick every now and then - and I don't mean in the fun way. Hard to hear that you're on the same level as a pedophile from people you love. Given that you joined here to get a break from the bigotry, I'm especially sorry that it got brought up on your introduction. Yeah, the shit hit the fan the last day or two, and yeah, people sometimes say things they normally wouldn't, but on the other hand, it can show exactly what kind of person is on the other end of the keyboard when the pressure's on. That can be useful.

Regarding AD's comments, it reminds me of why I find it so hard to relax around Christians. I've been friends with many, and many are very nice people . . . . and then one day something gets said that reminds you of why the Bible makes a better coaster than self-help book. What do you do then? Ignore the stupid thing and go back to being friends? I myself find it hard to forget of the prejudice existing just below the surface. There are many beliefs that I can ignore, that don't matter, don't affect me, and are easy to 'live and let live'. When it comes to the idea of homosexuality = sin, all I see is bigotry dressed up as religion. A reason - a "God-given" reason - for heteros who think gay sex is icky to justify their opinion. Sure, there is a verse or two in the Bible that says homosexual sex is an abomination. I don't argue that point. It actually makes it extremely easy to point out how the principles gleaned from it are based on the reader's own pre-existing bias, rather than any objective meaning.

(PS: I've bookmarked the godmademegay site to finish reading later).

[Sweetdeath]

Hi, TWC~
I saw you around here. Was going to introduce myself properly. I had no idea AD went on to jump/bash you so soon.

Yeah, i've been on these forums about a year and 2 months now. I love it here. The mods, especially Tank, are very kind and understanding. For the most part, we're all extremely open people.

I'm a gay woman, and i've had my fights with AD. Oh, trust me. I know his game of wording the "your acts don't bother me, but your sinning does."
And i love how well you handled it. You seem VERY informed. And, oh boy-- do i agree with you so very much about how many, many heterosexuals love to act all "oh gay sex is so gross and unnatural" but love to fuck their girlfriends up the ass.


Yesh, i've seen and heard it all. You seem to be a very cool and understanding guy. I do hope you stick around. If AD gets out of hand, we have plenty of kind mods and admins to handle it.

Cheers~!!

-Sweetdeath

[Wrath]

I won't lie to you and say I don't have issue with the sexual acts of the gay, but I have the same issue with the sexual acts of the straight.  I put no extra sin on the gay that indulge in sexual activity as they see fit.  Me being a straight male does not make me a better "Christian" than a gay male Christian...or non-Christian for that matter just because my sexual acts involve myself and a female/wife.  Within my belief system, we all need the same amount of Christ IN US to be saved.  I hope to say that is not offensive.  Feel free to question me on this if it is.  

I feel that there has been an overwhelming response of people opposed to your comment -- so without saying anything supporting or opposing it, can you please elaborate for all of us what it is that you take issue with the sexual acts of homosexuals?

I assume that since you are Christian and referencing Christianity, this is going to include not only relevant scripture but also your interpretation of it.

Edit: What I mean to say is that it is impossible to respond to so many people opposing your comment in a non-specific way, and I know how this feels, so I was hoping we could make it a more sensible discussion.

[Siz]

I gotta say that what AD has said above is in no way aggressive - passive or otherwise. He has quite clearly and with civility stated his thoughts on sexual acts, both gay and straight, and has levelled the field in terms of his perceptions of both.

I have only just met TWC and don't really know where he's coming from, but it seemed like more of an attack by him than the other way round.

I'm a tolerant Atheist and am keen not to see Christians on this forum treated as chew-toys. In terms of civility in this thread, AD has shown total respect. He's a Christian - of course he's going to disagree with us. If we want the input of Christians on this forum (which presumably is desirable when debating religion) we've got to accept differences when expressed with civility. Fundie Atheists are as ugly as fundie Christians.

Engage...

Edit: anyone seen Bruce?

[TheWalkingContradiction]

I gotta say that what AD has said above is in no way aggressive - passive or otherwise. He has quite clearly and with civility stated his thoughts on sexual acts, both gay and straight, and has levelled the field in terms of his perceptions of both.

I have only just met TWC and don't really know where he's coming from, but it seemed like more of an attack by him than the other way round.

I'm a tolerant Atheist and am keen not to see Christians on this forum treated as chew-toys. In terms of civility in this thread, AD has shown total respect. He's a Christian - of course he's going to disagree with us. If we want the input of Christians on this forum (which presumably is desirable when debating religion) we've got to accept differences when expressed with civility. Fundie Atheists are as ugly as fundie Christians.

Engage...

Edit: anyone seen Bruce?

As the eternal chew toy of many Christians in my real life, I have to disagree with you.  I do not see how all this can seem more like an attack from me.  But I am only human, so maybe I am wrong, and maybe I have too much of an ax to grind.  Still, I am afraid I don't know where you are coming from either.

I will say this, though.  The first posts in this thread were moved from my introductory post in the "Getting to Know You" section.  Aside from my post in the thread on gay rabbinical students in Israel, I have stayed in the Getting to Know You section so that I do not have to debate Christians here.  The rules of this board state that it is not appropriate to challenge someone in that section, and I am not looking to be challenged on something so basic to my biology.  To me, it is like challenging my right to brown eyes.  Have I broken a rule in some way?  

Is it wrong to be tired of people questioning my "lifestyle" or trying to prove that being gay is a "choice" or trying to show that gay sex is somehow counter to the natural moral order of things or telling me that I am a sinner in need of Jesus?  Is it wrong of me to be so drained by such people in real life that I wish to stay in a section of the board where I merely seek supportive interaction? If so, why?  

Here is the bottom line: If you (generic you) have issues with gay sex, then fine: Don't engage in gay sex.  If you are against gay marriage, then don't marry someone gay.  It's that simple.  

I have no problem with healthy debate here or anywhere else.  However, it does not belong in the Getting to Know You section.  Also, too often (again, speaking about my real life) I am cast in the villain's role for daring to stand up for gay people/myself.  I really don't want to be in that role on an atheist board I have just joined; if I am, my fangs will come out and I will probably get myself banned less than a week after I joined.  That is not the person I want to be here.

[Crow]

I gotta say that what AD has said above is in no way aggressive - passive or otherwise. He has quite clearly and with civility stated his thoughts on sexual acts, both gay and straight, and has levelled the field in terms of his perceptions of both.

I have only just met TWC and don't really know where he's coming from, but it seemed like more of an attack by him than the other way round.

I would say TWC has a point. It's quite a strange way to start talking to somebody for the first time, that you disprove of anal sex, wtf?. To be fair to AD at the same time TWC didn't need to mention he was gay just as he didn't mention his race therefore it can be seen as a point of conversation. But still there is no need to bring up that you disprove of the person you are talking to.

[Recusant]

I don't see either of the people in the OP as "attacking," in that post, nor in the rest of this thread. I moved it and the posts which followed out of the "Getting to Know You" section because the conversation had started touching on a subject which, because of its sometimes contentious nature, does not belong in that section. I don't think that AnimatedDirt said anything wrong, and he has previously stated his opinion on this topic, which, while it's one that I disagree with, is not anti-gay per se.

TheWalkingContradiction, I understand that you're not willing to ignore the Christian perspective vis-à-vis this topic, so you've continued the conversation in this thread. That's fine, but in my opinion, you bear just as much responsibility for the trend it took as AnimatedDirt. I don't see either of you as being aggressive here though, and hope that situation continues to obtain. You've clearly stated your position, as has AnimatedDirt, and nobody is forcing either of you to continue this conversation.

* * *

Edit: anyone seen Bruce?

He's on vacation. Last I heard he was in Wyoming, I think.

[AnimatedDirt]

Hello and welcome from a Christian.  Sorry for my fundie bretheren.  

Not an issue.  If you accept me as if, I will most gladly do the same for you.

Besides, I get along with my parents, sister, and Christian colleagues at work since they are all quite liberal.  In fact, when one of my colleagues was new a few years ago, she heard through the grapevine that I was gay and introduced herself by saying that her minister was gay and against Fundamentalists.  Quite an odd thing to hear from someone I had known for less than 30 seconds...

I do get regularly attacked by Christians in my extended family and one person in particular in my volunteer work, the latter being the person whose latest attack convinced me to join this board to retain my sanity...  But I know that not every Christian is like this.  I don't like the religion and fear its effect on people, but I do respect good people who happen to be Christian (or Jewish or Muslim or...)  It's a matter of agreeing to disagree.

I also have a gay friend who is a very conservative Christian and is thus celibate--and approaching 40.  This is very hard for me, as I feel bad for him.  (Not that I should talk, as I am single and won't say how long it has been since I have had sex; I tend to be very sexually conservative too...  Anyway...)  This is what he wants, but he is otherwise a decent guy.  He is also a teacher, and we share a lot of our experiences.

I won't lie to you and say I don't have issue with the sexual acts of the gay, but I have the same issue with the sexual acts of the straight.  I put no extra sin on the gay that indulge in sexual activity as they see fit.  Me being a straight male does not make me a better "Christian" than a gay male Christian...or non-Christian for that matter just because my sexual acts involve myself and a female/wife.  Within my belief system, we all need the same amount of Christ IN US to be saved.  I hope to say that is not offensive.  Feel free to question me on this if it is.  

I wish you had stuck with good wishes, particularly since I have, for the most part, stayed in this lounge section of the board where I am supposed to relax and take it easy.  I did not come here to debate Christians; the presence of Christians and their criticism of me is what made me leave my last atheist board.  --SIGH!--  End of honeymoon day two on the board.  Now I have to get down to serious business.

What you wrote is not offensive on the surface--but on some levels it is quite offensive since this is the word game many Christians play to fake empathy for gays but also stick in a little preaching.  It goes something like this: "Gay sex is not any more of a sin than anything else we all do, and we all need to be saved from the penalty of our sins."  

There are only a handful of references in the Bible that may or may not be about gay people.  See the first paragraph of my post here as to why these references may not be about gays at all:  

http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=9833.msg180029#msg180029

I only scratch the surface, but many argue this point--not just the rabbis I talked about.  

I understand that as a Christian you probably want the words of a Christian minister who has done extensive research and supposedly speaks to Jesus.  Here is one, as I don't have the time or desire to do a long search for many.   (You can, as there are many out there).  I know this piece and have used it in my volunteer counseling with young gays, some of whom are Christians who would not benefit from my atheist perspective.  It is called "A Letter to Louise: A Biblical Affirmation of Homosexuality."  The author is a pro-gay Baptist minister--a married heterosexual in his 90s, I might add.    

http://godmademegay.com/  

Click on "Six Points" from the menu atop the page and then scroll down to "1. There is nothing in the Bible about homosexuality or homosexual people."

That being said...  Even if the verses in question are about gays (which I do not believe they are), there are many, many more references to helping the poor--and that is something most of our Bible thumpers don't really do.  Given the sheer number of references, to which should our attention be drawn?  And yet, it is the thumpers who vote away jobs and health care and allow the downtrodden to rot in the street who donate incredible amounts to anti-gay advertising, agencies, and lobbyists.    

Now, on being saved: I don't believe I need to be saved from anything other than dirty laundry.

Next: Why would you have issue with the sexual acts of gay people?  Many heterosexuals practice sodomy and oral sex, the things gays are stereotyped as doing.  Some gays (myself included) have never had it or put it up the ass and never want to; some straight guys, on the other hand, love it when their girlfriends and wives put fingers, beaded necklaces, and other items up there.  So, who is the sodomite?    

Also, why is it a sin to kiss a man but not a sin to dash the heads of infants against a wall/rock?  The Bible is full of dashing.  And if you take a look at The Book of Job, you see how petty and vindictive the Judeo-Christian god is--and all to prove to the devil that he is right.  Why would an omnipotent being need to prove anything, and why would he care what the devil thought of him?  And how could he think that replacing dead children with new children will appease a father who loved the original children?

This is who I am supposed to follow?  This is who calls my love a sin?  I will never dash an infant's head, but I will give a man a deep kiss.

Ok, well that went wrong, didn't it.  I didn't write what I did to engage in debate as I have no debate.

I support the freedom to choose to enjoy life as each person sees fit as long as it is not harming others, etc.  My personal beliefs on what is and isn't sin, in context of my religion, should not be legislated onto secular society and furthermore, in context of my own religion, I do not weigh the homosexual more or less sinful than a heterosexual on a 'sin scale'.

I don't judge anyone for being homosexual.  I don't hold the homosexual as any less of a person simply because they are homosexual.  We are equals, both in my religious beliefs and my beliefs as a member of secular society.

I accept you as you are.   

[AnimatedDirt]

I don't see either of the people in the OP as "attacking," in that post, nor in the rest of this thread. I moved it and the posts which followed out of the "Getting to Know You" section because the conversation had started touching on a subject which, because of its sometimes contentious nature, does not belong in that section. I don't think that AnimatedDirt said anything wrong, and he has previously stated his opinion on this topic, which, while it's one that I disagree with, is not anti-gay per se.

TheWalkingContradiction, I understand that you're not willing to ignore the Christian perspective vis-à-vis this topic, so you've continued the conversation in this thread. That's fine, but in my opinion, you bear just as much responsibility for the trend it took as AnimatedDirt. I don't see either of you as being aggressive here though, and hope that situation continues to obtain. You've clearly stated your position, as has AnimatedDirt, and nobody is forcing either of you to continue this conversation.

I had been working on a reply and then when I previewed I saw your post.  I figured I'd click post anyway.  I hope my post isn't overstepping your moderating. 

[TheWalkingContradiction]

First, let me bury the hatchet immediately.  I have my issues, but, in the spirit of what Recusant wrote, that does not mean I need to make AnimatedDirt think my way.  It takes two to tango (sorry for all the cliches), so I take responsibility for my actions and accept any reprimand.

I just didn't expect such a post from out of left field in a safe zone of the board, for lack of a better term.  Crow nailed what I felt in his post.

I am at work now and have to teach again soon, so I cannot spend too much time here.  However, tonight or tomorrow I will work on putting something in my signature that says I am happy to talk to and even be supportive of Christians as well as atheists here, but that, at this time in my life, I am not going to debate homosexuality/my biology with anyone or be preached to/told I need Jesus to save me from sin.  That said, I will always answer questions about being gay/my experiences and add information about a variety of topics when I feel I have something non-controversial to say.  That is as far as I can go.

I wish I had the stamina (maturity?) to debate homosexuality and other issues with Christians, but a lot of Christians have done a lot of abusive things to me--especially when I was young and intimidated into obeying Jesus and "being" heterosexual.  I am also currently in a situation where I have to deal with an abusive Christian in order to carry out volunteer work, and as soon as I say something like "That's one way of looking at gay issues but not the only way" I am accused of attacking her religion since what she believes is "Truth"  with a capital T and comes from "experience of God, not theory."  Should I leave this position, I will be abandoning people who depend on me.  

For these and many other reasons, I simply cannot deal with Bible-based debate on homosexuality in an appropriate way.  (To some extent, I cannot deal with Christians unless I know them very well and they have proven to me that they will never pull a Bible card.) I wish the situation were different; given my age, I also wish I were different--but this is who I am.  I want to be on this board, and I admit my limitations.  It was intention when I joined not to engage in debate here.

I won't lie.  I joined this board because I could not find an LGBT atheist board (preferably one that also included straight allies).  No such board exists, and when a search brought up both "The Happy Atheist" and "The Arrogant Atheist," among other boards, I went for the non-arrogant one.  I can be quite arrogant, actually, and that is something I do not wish to indulge in here.

I hope you can all understand this, and I invite the moderators to let me know at any time if I say or do something inappropriate.