News:

Departing the Vacuousness

Main Menu

Started by Eowyn, July 28, 2006, 03:31:26 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Asmodean Prime

#15
laetus

you make a good point, although I do think that a lot of muslims would be reluctant to contradict the 'violent' teachings of the koran, such as killiing the infidels wherever you find them.  Another thing, as I said before, the violent Christian history you mention was committed in the most part as far as I know by catholics, and templar knight crusaders, none of which are truly Christian at heart.

As for the violent sections of scripture, we Christians are always more prone to temper these teachings with love, which is the proper way, I think.

I don't see muslims as the enemy (except the more militant ones) -after all, they are taught to hate and kill Christians, Jews, and all 'unbelievers' (the militant muslims I'm talking about) -we are not taught to hate them.  Plus we have a common history (the old testament) - its just that we believe they diverted, just as we had a common history with the Jews, but we also believe that they diverted from the truth, too.

I must admit, though, that 'religion' as seen by the unbeliever, is quite often a dividing factor in society, and most wars have been fought over religion - but, equally, most 'everyday' crimes have been committed I think by non-believers, mainly because they believe that they have no-one to answer to for their actions.  This is obviously apparent in society in general, in my opinion.  People just don't care any more it seems about anybody else except themselves, and are deeply selfish, inconsiderate and uncaring.     They wouldn't be so keen to behave that way if they believed there is a God to answer to in my opinion.  

What do you think?

Whitney

#16
Quote from: "onlyme"laetus

you make a good point, although I do think that a lot of muslims would be reluctant to contradict the 'violent' teachings of the koran, such as killiing the infidels wherever you find them.  Another thing, as I said before, the violent Christian history you mention was committed in the most part as far as I know by catholics, and templar knight crusaders, none of which are truly Christian at heart.

Right, and I said before that they are still Christians even if you don't view them as such.  You really have no way of knowing what they believe in their 'hearts' anyway.  

Also, although the Koran does say to kill infidels, it seems that the context says to only do so when attacked first (self defense).

QuoteAs for the violent sections of scripture, we Christians are always more prone to temper these teachings with love, which is the proper way, I think.

I don't know how many Muslims you have talked to, but that's just what mainstream Islam teaches...to love everyone.

Neither the Koran or Bible are very good moral books...the fact that believers have to say to view it with love or put it in historical context is a pretty good indicator that neither are divine texts.  

QuoteI don't see muslims as the enemy (except the more militant ones) -after all, they are taught to hate and kill Christians, Jews, and all 'unbelievers' (the militant muslims I'm talking about) -we are not taught to hate them.  Plus we have a common history (the old testament) - its just that we believe they diverted, just as we had a common history with the Jews, but we also believe that they diverted from the truth, too.

Right, and both Jews and Muslims think Christians have diverted from the truth.

QuoteI must admit, though, that 'religion' as seen by the unbeliever, is quite often a dividing factor in society, and most wars have been fought over religion - but, equally, most 'everyday' crimes have been committed I think by non-believers, mainly because they believe that they have no-one to answer to for their actions.  This is obviously apparent in society in general, in my opinion.  People just don't care any more it seems about anybody else except themselves, and are deeply selfish, inconsiderate and uncaring.     They wouldn't be so keen to behave that way if they believed there is a God to answer to in my opinion.

To be blunt, I think your views of morality and why people choose to act morally are tainted by your past and having to find religion in order to be a moral person.

The following study found a negative correlation between religiosity and social welfare of a country (news reports of the study are titled "Society worse off with God on their side": http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2005-11.pdf

If the findings of the study are correct, my explanation is the popular beliefs among Christians, although it may not be okay to do wrong, that God will forgive them as long as they believe Jesus died for their sins.  After all, they are only human and will mess up (original sin means they are inherently sinful anyway)...the belief that earthly sins are forgiven just because of faith in the right religion is an easy out for those who believe in God yet have tendencies to want to do wrong.

Additionally, even a society built on philosophical egoism would function in an ethical manner.  For instance, I don't want anyone to kill me (for this example we'll assume that I don't really care if others are killed, even though I do care).  Since I don't want anyone to kill me, it would be a good idea to make murder illegal.  Out of complete selfishness, the idea of do not murder can be created.  If I don't want myself to be murdered yet go out and kill another person, that would open the door for others to want to kill me.  The only way to ensure my own protection from murder is to create a moral system in which murder is not allowed.

edit:  I also wrote this essay http://www.happyatheistforum.com/kb.php ... rticle&k=2 which touches upon some of the reasons why religion isn't a good basis for morality. (The essay could use refinement, I was on a tight schedule when writing it for class, but I haven't gotten around to changing anything yet)

Court

#17
Quote from: "onlyme"laetus

you make a good point, although I do think that a lot of muslims would be reluctant to contradict the 'violent' teachings of the koran, such as killiing the infidels wherever you find them.  Another thing, as I said before, the violent Christian history you mention was committed in the most part as far as I know by catholics, and templar knight crusaders, none of which are truly Christian at heart.

I'm pretty sure the witch burnings weren't just done by catholics.
It's easy for you to say "They weren't really christian at heart," but the truth of the matter is, if the bible wasn't inherently violent, these people could never of have murdered countless people in the name of god. The bible is clear on the subject: Murder for religion is endorsed by god. You can sugar-coat it with Jesus-love all you want, but the words are still there.

Quote from: "onlyme"As for the violent sections of scripture, we Christians are always more prone to temper these teachings with love, which is the proper way, I think.

Unfortunately for christianity, what you think is irrelevent. Christianity's basis for existing is the bible. The bible says to kill certain types of sinners (homosexuals and witches, for example). It doesn't get simpler than that.

Quote from: "onlyme"I don't see muslims as the enemy (except the more militant ones) -after all, they are taught to hate and kill Christians, Jews, and all 'unbelievers' (the militant muslims I'm talking about) -we are not taught to hate them.  Plus we have a common history (the old testament) - its just that we believe they diverted, just as we had a common history with the Jews, but we also believe that they diverted from the truth, too.

I think you have a twisted view of Islam. To me, it looks pretty similar to christianity, except that christianity is rooted in a more developed part of the world. Basically, they both have horrendously violent books that also teach peace and love. The majority of both religions preach the peace and love and ignore the violence. Then, when criticizing the other, they point to the violent verses in the other book and ignore or rationalize the ones in their own. It's frustrating to watch.

Quote from: "onlyme"I must admit, though, that 'religion' as seen by the unbeliever, is quite often a dividing factor in society, and most wars have been fought over religion - but, equally, most 'everyday' crimes have been committed I think by non-believers, mainly because they believe that they have no-one to answer to for their actions.  This is obviously apparent in society in general, in my opinion.  People just don't care any more it seems about anybody else except themselves, and are deeply selfish, inconsiderate and uncaring.     They wouldn't be so keen to behave that way if they believed there is a God to answer to in my opinion.  

Wow, that's just wrong. I'm also thinking of the study Laetus posted.
Also, I read a study that there is an astounding disproportionate amount of people in prison who are christian (and most other religions) than who are non-religious. Let me go find it and I'll post it here.
http://holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
"Note that atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population (about 8-16%) are disproportionately less in the prison populations (0.21%). "
I'm sorry, that's the best one I could find. I suck at the internet. :)
[size=92]
I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of silent seas
[/size]
[size=92]
try having a little faith = stop using your brain for a while -- ziffel[/size]

silviakjell

#18
Wait...was that "Onion" essay a joke? or was it real news? getting me confused here. What other essays has he written?
I might be wrong, but Im pretty sure Im right.

Aullios

#19
The Onion is a parody newspaper.  I think they update weekly.

silviakjell

#20
What does a parody newspaper do?

yay! i've changed into a member.
I might be wrong, but Im pretty sure Im right.

Court

#21
Wiki: In contemporary usage, parody is a form of satire that imitates another work of art in order to ridicule or poke affectionate fun at either the work itself, or the subject of the work, or in some cases simply the subject of the parody.

Parody exists in all art media, including literature, music, and cinema. Cultural movements can also be parodied. Such works are also sometimes colloquially referred to as spoofs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parody
[size=92]
I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of silent seas
[/size]
[size=92]
try having a little faith = stop using your brain for a while -- ziffel[/size]

silviakjell

#22
Thanks. I should use Wikepedia more often but I'm too lazy. :)
I might be wrong, but Im pretty sure Im right.

Theist

#23
Quote from: "Court"Onlyme, have you read the bible? God specifically demands you to kill certain types of sinners. Or are you an OT hater?

Court, you implied, as quoted above that there are specific verses in the bible that tell you to kill certain sinners. Out of my own curiousity, could you possibly give me some specific verses so I could look them up? Much thanks

donkeyhoty

#24
Quote from: "Thiest"Court, you implied, as quoted above that there are specific verses in the bible that tell you to kill certain sinners. Out of my own curiousity, could you possibly give me some specific verses so I could look them up? Much thanks

Deuteronomy 13:13-17 for one instance.

Leviticus 20:13 for another.

And Leviticus 18:14, third time's the charm.

Leviticus certainly has a lot of "if this, then die"
"Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."  - Pat Robertson

Theist

#25
thanks donkey

User192021

#26
Quote from: "onlyme"laetus, that makes it very clear.  Thanks.  I wont ask again.

You said 'there aren't many atheists out there...'

I disagree with you on that.  At least in my experience, we believers seem vastly outnumbered.  In the company I work for, consisting of about 300 people, all of them I've ever asked, have said that they are atheists.  

I don't know of another single believer where I work.  If that is at all representative of the population in general, there are a great many atheists out there.   They may not go out of their way to broadcast it, but it's certainly what they believe.
Wow, I want to come work there!