QuoteHundreds of white supremacists marched with torches in an American city Friday night. They arrived the next day brandishing weapons and armor. One white supremacist allegedly murdered an anti-racist protester in the street with his car and injured several others. This is what really happened when you peel back all the rhetoric flying in the aftermath, and after you tune out the first reprehensible response from the President of the United States, and his subsequent update to it that was two days late and a dollar short.
Vice News, to the outlet's immense credit, was on the ground to document the events in Charlottesville this weekend. Reporter Elle Reeve even embedded, for a time, with white supremacist leader Chris Cantwell. What she found speaks for itself, but keep an eye out for the little things. Like, say, how many guns these white supremacists have.
Superb video and story.
The question before us is obvious. Is this the country we've built for ourselves? And can we allow it to continue this way?
Here is a video of which are by far the most disgusting, revolting comments I've ever heard a President say, but as many have said, "I'm shocked at his words, but not surprised". With this statement Trump has officially announced himself to the world to be not only a racist, but a vile and horrible person and millions of us Americans are now "morally nauseous" that Trump put neo-Nazis and Klansmen on same moral plane as counter-protesters as he was insisting that not all of the neo-Nazis and white supremacists who rallied in Charlottesville this weekend were bad people.
This is Fox News this very minute... a rain of apologetics regarding slavery, simply sickening.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FwVcv9GL.jpg&hash=9af9aaa2f38823b424c60eaf84b22fe70cf84b34)
"Racism is evil because its ultimate logic is genocide." — MLK, at Stanford in 1967
(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2017-08/15/13/campaign_images/buzzfeed-prod-fastlane-01/that-viral-nazi-assholes-tiki-torch-sign-is-actua-2-26112-1502818633-19_dblbig.jpg)
Aztecs owned slaves? North American "Indians" owned slaves?
Without getting into why "indian" is used wrongly here, tge Aztec empire was in the now North America. And what part of that makes it okay to own slaves? I thought these Fox news turds were all about hard work and all that? What about having slaves makes you a hard worker? Not only that, it makes you a dispicable human being.
You do not have to go back far to find that, probably, every nation on Earth used slaves in their history. "Modern slavery", bonded or forced labour for minimum or almost non-existent benefit, is still common in the Middle East and probably elsewhere where a medieval cultural mindset still persists.
So what has thus to do with the situation in 21st Century America,. For some, it is the attitude that blacks are lesser humans than whites, which was used as an excuse for treating the slaves like animals. So, medieval throwbacks still live in in America at least. The Nazis were well into medieval myths about race as well.
The Chump had to get hammered by both sides of the aisle to go and put out a ...sort of... rational response. Then he backtracked on it after David Duke (his K-K-Kontroller, after Putin) reminded him of "who got him elected". This whole debacle absolutely sickens me.
Why?!
I mean, why?!
Some accuse the car-guy of domestic terrorism before it's even determined whether or not the attack was planned, many accuse the right-wing factions of starting shit, but were they not basically protesting some statue being torn down?
Let them fucking march and have their banners and slogans and assault rifles, since first you are in a country where a person can have those. They have the right to their opinion, and they have the right to express it in a peaceful way, which I suppose they would have done, had the other assholes not shown up. They almost didn't too, if crappy YouTube cellphone dumps are anything to go by. The whole thing may have turned out to be as dull a media-affair as that far-right-winger march we had in some city or other here... Some news outlets tried their utmost to run with it, but a month or so after the fact, it's more or less completely forgotten.
And why shouldn't them other assholes have shown up, you may ask. They have the right to express their opinion peacefully, just like the right-wing groups do. That's absolutely true. That's where the riot police and politicians and what have you come in with proper planning and a semblance of crowd control. And by "come in," I mean "seemingly stand down."
The whole mess was a mess. Don't blame the Nazis for more than their share of it.
People say black lives matter are terrible things (forget what exactly) so why do nazis get the slip? Especially since they've actually killed people?
Quote from: Asmodean on August 16, 2017, 07:04:02 AMLet them fucking march and have their banners and slogans and assault rifles, since first you are in a country where a person can have those. They have the right to their opinion, and they have the right to express it in a peaceful way, which I suppose they would have done, had the other assholes not shown up.
The great thing is, that everyone gets the right to have their banners, and slogans, and express heir opinions even their opinions about what other people are expressing. Even at the same time. What is unacceptable, is driving a car into a crowd of people.
Assaulting one of the organizers. That too. So fucking prosecute the perps then.
In a racist society it is not enough to be non-racist, we must be anti-racist.
One side arrived in militia.
One side beat a black man.
One side took a girl's life.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVIikfOD.jpg&hash=c9214e0ba9a584d495563d023521e95af875d6b8)
Fuck the Nazi, Alt-right, Confederate, Racist, In-Bred, Pale-White, Ignorant, Hateful Mother-Fuckers who marched on Friday night chanting "Jews will not replace us.", and who on Saturday chanted, "Blood and Soil", and who then murdered "Heather Heyer".
I'm glad that girl died' during Virginia protest, says NC KKK leader
(http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article167303682.html)
The stated beliefs of the Nazi-fascist movements, which is to destroy democracy, impose a terrorist regime based on racism, discrimination, and xenophobia through force segregation and genocide ≠ Opinion.
Quote from: Asmodean on August 16, 2017, 03:42:44 PM
Assaulting one of the organizers. That too. So fucking prosecute the perps then.
That was one thing.
So you no longer hold that people should be able to express their views without opposition? You are no longer blaming the victims for getting run over?
Eh..? Lemme figure out where I said what, board the train and compose an answer.
Teaser version; yes.
Quote from: Asmodean on August 16, 2017, 07:04:02 AMLet them fucking march and have their banners and slogans and assault rifles, since first you are in a country where a person can have those. They have the right to their opinion, and they have the right to express it in a peaceful way, which I suppose they would have done, had the other assholes not shown up.
@Father Bruno's Donald Tweet
Nazis had a permit? To wage war? When does that happen?
And going off another post I saw somewhere, maybe Davin's, I don't know. Everyone has their right to an opinion in the United States. They are also free to express that opinion until it fucks with another person's rights. The constitution says "all men are created equal" so preaching this "you will not replace us" is logically flawed in this regard of rights. You spent enough time on top, it's time to give someone else a shot. After all, the president does that every four years. If you don't like it, you can get out!
Nice new profile picture you have there btw Bruno.
Quote from: Davin on August 16, 2017, 04:52:39 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on August 16, 2017, 07:04:02 AMLet them fucking march and have their banners and slogans and assault rifles, since first you are in a country where a person can have those. They have the right to their opinion, and they have the right to express it in a peaceful way, which I suppose they would have done, had the other assholes not shown up.
Thanks. That clarifies things. So I know I promised an edit, but a couple of posts were made since, so a new reply it is;
Opposition, when done well, is not a bad thing. Ideas fall or grow stronger from being opposed. Rioting and assaulting people, however... Well, when it comes to protests, I draw my line at invasion of personal space, so yeah. I take a dim view of that, no matter who does it or why. It does nothing to move the dialogue in a constructive sort of direction, or to resolve the underlying issues.
So some assholes march in protest against some statue removal thing, which they also use to propagate their ideology, yes? Do a counter-protest. if you must,
for the statue removal thing while propagating yours. In my eyes, you will likely make as much of a fool out of yourself as them other assholes, but so what? If you have a point, I will give you it. Start some violent shit, however, or partake in any except when clearly defending from an attack, aaand... Credibility gone. It's not the only way to lose it with me, but it sure is the fastest.
To answer your second point, "Always blame the victim" is wrong as sometimes, the victim
is blameless. "Never blame the victim" is also wrong, as sometimes the victim is to blame - at least partly.
In this particular case, I understand that the person who was killed was a counter-protester. She accepted certain risks (albeit not on her life, one must assume) when she went to the damned thing. Is she then entirely free from blame for her being dead? Almost, but not quite. I'll grant you this: in this case, it's a matter of technicality. Personally, I equate "almost" with "yes" here. Still, I buy the distinction if one is to be made.
Preambles aside, if you want to condemn a group rather than an individual for the murder, you can certainly do that. However, in that case, this being one person killing another where the motives and planning are not yet clear, if you want to condemn the several right-winger factions and possibly unaffiliated parties as one, then you have to view the murder victim as a part of a group also, or forego some fairly big chunk of integrity. Group against group, there are few blameless parties in that shit. Perhaps the chopper pilots (Do correct me if they were shot down or some such. Last I read it was assumed to be an accident of some sort)
So yes. One guy killed a person and injured several others. Lock the motherfucker up. Group against group though, there are plenty of felony charges to go around, no? So why do the other assholes not deserve some condemnation as well as the right-wingers?
Also, the above tweet does read like it was written by Donald Trump, but... Once again, the guy's
not wrong.
If you're going to ascribe some blame on the victim, that implies some "shoulds."
Do you think that a person should be able express their views without getting violently attacked? If you think that a person should, then how do you place any blame on a person doing just that who got run over? If you blame the victim, the you think that the victim did something wrong. So what did the victim do that was wrong that you're blaming them for? Expressing opposing opinions?
Sure, let's get all the felonies out of the way and see how many fall into which group. How far back do we start counting?
Ok. At the risk of starting another marathon, I have to break this one down.
Quote from: Davin on August 16, 2017, 05:46:48 PM
If you're going to ascribe some blame on the victim, that implies some "shoulds."
Not necessarily, but the maybes and ought-tos do make explaining one's position easier sometimes.
QuoteDo you think that a person should be able express their views without getting violently attacked?
Not as you phrase it, no. I think a person has an expectation of not being violently attacked. Period.
QuoteIf you think that a person should, then how do you place any blame on a person doing just that who got run over? If you blame the victim, the you think that the victim did something wrong. So what did the victim do that was wrong that you're blaming them for? Expressing opposing opinions?
Not at all. I'm referring to said person willingly entering a potentially volatile situation. Had she been there by happenstance or against her will - a
whole-nother-story. Again, it's a technicality in this instance. I think I explained my position well enough in the post above.
Quote
Sure, let's get all the felonies out of the way and see how many fall into which group. How far back do we start counting?
You count far, I will do wide. Let's see who wins, yes?
Ah, fuck me for playing the Stalin card. Felons are felons. In that regard, they all fall into the same group.
Darvin asked:
QuoteDo you think that a person should be able express their views without getting violently attacked?
Asmo replied:
QuoteNot as you phrase it, no. I think a person has an expectation of not being violently attacked. Period.
With Asmo on the "...expectation of not being violently attacked..." aspect. Expressing one's views, freedom of speech, is skways a minefield. Expressing the views that, say, there is a Somethingish conspiracy to take the country over, is an opinion that, whilst inflamatory, is not illegal. Expressing an opinion that this should be a valid reason to persecute all those of the Something persuation has taken the matter over the line for most legal systems I would suspect.
But, it is still not grounds for an attack and anyone attacking a person voicing that latter opinion should be A. cheered by any right thinking person, yet, B. arrested and charged with a suitable assault offence.
(I would then conttibute to his defence fund on the promise he would not be such an idiot in future.)
Yes. The above, it is good.
To expand on my position a little, I have the same expectation of not being attacked if I walk up to an ill-tempered boulder of a guy made entirely from muscle and politely but bluntly inquire about how much them roids shrunk his testicles.
When said boulder then clocks me right in my fucking mouth, is he entirely at fault? I'm the vic in that situation - I was only trying to have a polite, if ill-advised conversation. Or am I entirely that..?
Often times, it does take at least two to tango. The rest is a matter of gradients and bad decisions.
Was this organizer you speak of Asmodean, was he the organizer of the white nationalist thing that day? And when he was assaulted, did that incite the violence "on both sides"? Because all I can find is that he was assaulted
after during a press conference where people were chanting the name of the woman who died.
And this
Quote
I'm the vic in that situation - I was only trying to have a polite, if ill-advised conversation. Or am I entirely that..?
Inciting violence with words is still illegal. The words you used were not polite. The freedoms in america only go so far until you infringe on another person's rights. And the pursuit of happiness is still in the constitution.
That statue was from a traitor to the country. Whether you like him or not, he is not American. Like you said the statue is used to propagate their message. They likely used the statue as a symbol for their ideology. They think this country is so damn great, why do they care about the remnants of the defeated and dead military leader for a bunch of traitors? The guy is dead and they didn't do anything he did, so why are they trying to align themselves with him? Isn't that what they were saying about racists acts done by their ancestors before Trump was elected? "I didn't do that so I'm not falling for your liberal guilt". They are just using whatever means they can to get their ideas mainstreamed and put into enforced, and punishable law.
Quote from: Father Bruno on August 16, 2017, 04:19:54 PM
In a racist society it is not enough to be non-racist, we must be anti-racist.
One side arrived in militia.
One side beat a black man.
One side took a girl's life.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVIikfOD.jpg&hash=c9214e0ba9a584d495563d023521e95af875d6b8)
Fuck the Nazi, Alt-right, Confederate, Racist, In-Bred, Pale-White, Ignorant, Hateful Mother-Fuckers who marched on Friday night chanting "Jews will not replace us.", and who on Saturday chanted, "Blood and Soil", and who then murdered "Heather Heyer".
I'm glad that girl died' during Virginia protest, says NC KKK leader
(http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article167303682.html)
The stated beliefs of the Nazi-fascist movements, which is to destroy democracy, impose a terrorist regime based on racism, discrimination, and xenophobia through force segregation and genocide ≠ Opinion.
I'm trying to grasp the meaning of that tweet. Is Donald trying to imply that you need a permit to hold a protset or that one party having a permit somehow negates the right of one party to protest without one? Having been on the organizing end of a few such shindigs I always find it amusing when someone starts crying about having a permit. In this case I just find it sickening.
^ Is it not ironic that Nazis didn't have a permit to start their war when the current ones are complaining the other side does not have their permit?
Looks like all that needs to be cleared up is blaming the victim (even a little).
Quote from: Asmodean on August 16, 2017, 05:59:57 PM
QuoteDo you think that a person should be able express their views without getting violently attacked?
Not as you phrase it, no. I think a person has an expectation of not being violently attacked. Period.
Then what did they do wrong? Blaming someone requires that you think they did something wrong. So if you're going to blame them, even a little, for getting run over, then you should explain what they did wrong. Or maybe "blame" is not the word you mean?
Quote from: AsmodeanQuote
Sure, let's get all the felonies out of the way and see how many fall into which group. How far back do we start counting?
You count far, I will do wide. Let's see who wins, yes?
https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2015/tables-and-data-declarations/1tabledatadecpdf
Looks like anti-white loses by a lot against all the others. By almost 10 to 1.
Quote from: jumbojak on August 16, 2017, 10:04:53 PM
Quote from: Father Bruno on August 16, 2017, 04:19:54 PM
In a racist society it is not enough to be non-racist, we must be anti-racist.
One side arrived in militia.
One side beat a black man.
One side took a girl's life.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVIikfOD.jpg&hash=c9214e0ba9a584d495563d023521e95af875d6b8)
Fuck the Nazi, Alt-right, Confederate, Racist, In-Bred, Pale-White, Ignorant, Hateful Mother-Fuckers who marched on Friday night chanting "Jews will not replace us.", and who on Saturday chanted, "Blood and Soil", and who then murdered "Heather Heyer".
I'm glad that girl died' during Virginia protest, says NC KKK leader
(http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article167303682.html)
The stated beliefs of the Nazi-fascist movements, which is to destroy democracy, impose a terrorist regime based on racism, discrimination, and xenophobia through force segregation and genocide ≠ Opinion.
I'm trying to grasp the meaning of that tweet. Is Donald trying to imply that you need a permit to hold a protset or that one party having a permit somehow negates the right of one party to protest without one? Having been on the organizing end of a few such shindigs I always find it amusing when someone starts crying about having a permit. In this case I just find it sickening.
Like almost everything else Trump says, it's a lie. The counter-protesters had two permits.
http://www.nbc29.com/story/36099395/city-of-charlottesville-grants-two-permits-for-counterprotests-of-unite-the-right
Edit: that tweet image is a joke based on what he really said, I was talking about what he really said.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/photo-antifa-man-assaulting-officer-doctored-analysis-shows/
Doctored image of an "antifa" rioter attacking a cop was spread around.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FsDu1BSf.jpg&hash=688edb364b062db765a1ce5eeea6879331fe0105)
This picture says so much doesn't it?...Least of which you aren't born hating, it has to be taught.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHqpMhD8.jpg&hash=822c533ea8f69b940b19118fd107e0533ae8e5a1)
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FBkE1Zl9.jpg&hash=0f1610240d52fc19ffe989c7953a5a9866c44f2d)
Davin's link to the DOJ tables & data-declarations is an intriguing read. The numbers are curious and if they are to be believed, they are disturbingly revealing.
The Numbers suggest that there is four times more anti Jew activity/sentiment/animosity than there is anti Muslim activity. I find that more than curious. I'd have imagined the statistic to go the opposite direction. What the hell. The Jews are almost never given over to acts terrorism or senseless behavior that would reflect on their political, social, or religious convictions.
The anti gay (male) sentiment is three times more prevalent than anti Lesbian sentiment. This one I can take a mental flyer to kinda sorta understand. Here's why. The perpetrators of anti this or that actions are predominantly male and straight ....they are often Bubba types I figure. . A matter of fact is that a lot of men are turned on by observing lesbian PDA, and especially the non public displays of affection. Lesbians are less reviled therefore.... ?
Vice Reporter: Charlottesville Protesters 'Didn't Talk About Robert E. Lee...They Chanted About Jews' (http://ijr.com/2017/08/952275-vice-reporter-charlottesville-protesters-didnt-talk-robert-e-leethey-chanted-jews/)
Quote"This was an unannounced event, but a very well-organized one," she began. "When we arrived, there were vans dropping off white nationalists at the field. On the field, there were organizers doing crowd control, security, handing out tiki torches. They picked tiki torches as to be menacing, sometimes they call it a torch-lit vigil, because it's supposed to be an offensive spin on a candlelight vigil."
"Once they started marching, they didn't talk about Robert E. Lee being a brilliant military tactician, they chanted about Jews," she said. "They wanted to be menacing, it's not an accident."
Regardless of what Trump or any of the other racist supporters say the march of the Nazi's had nothing to do with statues.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6WUnjko.jpg&hash=e73c660d585ee06f54ec02fe10d40236dbf28828)
No bond set for Chris "nazi crybaby" Cantwel...this is the well armed, racist, piece of shit from the "Vice" report I posted at the beginning of this thread.
(He surrendered to police and his now being held on multiple charges, judge denied him bail) (http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/23/us/urgent--christopher-cantwell-surrenders/index.html)
What is typical for these types of excrement is that when push comes to shove they are not the brave, ready to die for their cause types they like to present themselves as when bragging to reporters or posting their vile shit online.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPbHLZFo.gif&hash=684fd4785fa24dfa858ea1cb78605bca2ad3c2c1)
When faced with having to deal with real situations they fucking back off, run and cry. As Anderson Cooper said, "..it's not really news to report that bullies are frequently also sniveling cowards."
Here's "Crybaby Cantwel" crying days after Charlottesville in a post he made online, and here's another inbred fuck-wad who's only brave when he marching with similar twats. Tries to remove his "Uniform", but doesn't change the fact that he's a pussy-ass nazi.
That mugshot looks like someone I know but I can't put my finger on where I've seen him...I remember the guy was being creepy though. Always felt like I was around a sexual predator. I don't know if the guy I knew was like that, but I remember picking up those vibes.