Happy Atheist Forum

Getting To Know You => Introductions => Topic started by: Biggus Dickus on April 19, 2017, 04:51:45 PM

Title: Hello Manga
Post by: Biggus Dickus on April 19, 2017, 04:51:45 PM
You made numerous posts on this forum about various NDE's, paranormal events and now a list of "evidence" supposedly which prove that Jesus arose or returned from the dead.

I've suggested in one or more of your threads as have others here at HAF that you aren't really asking questions about these topics of yours because you have doubts concerning the existence of god or proof of an afterlife, but rather that you are quietly trolling and or proselytizing us.

The more I read your posts, along with the lack of sincere responses you have given to the questions we've asked of you (Or simply ignored) the more inclined I am that your motive is that of an evangelical who is out to convert or attempt to convert us from being atheists.

I don't actually mind the attempt of you to do so if indeed that is your mission here, but I would ask that you at least make your motives clear to us rather than try and deceive us by utilizing standard evangelical tactics under the guise of being on the cusp of belief.

I've been an atheist for a very long time (30 years), and have been subject to many attempts at conversion by religious folks...the times it has bothered me the most is when folks have attempted to proselytize me when I have been in a vulnerable state (Such as when my Mother was sick) or under the dishonest guise of faking their own lack of belief when in fact no such doubt existed.

So I am posting this thread in an attempt to find out your true motives at our Forum.

As you made no introductory thread, nor involved yourself in any of the other widely diverse threads where perhaps we could have gotten to know you better (All the more reason to doubt your sincerity as this is not unusual amongst those whose only desire here is to troll or convert us) I'm hoping you'll come forward here and let us know your true intentions, and maybe let us know a little bit more about you.

So who are you magna, and what is your real purpose here?


Edited title to correct name. - R


Title: Re: Hello Magna
Post by: hermes2015 on April 19, 2017, 05:05:47 PM
I cannot agree more. I think everyone here has realized that I also have doubts about your sincerity, manga.
Title: Re: Hello Magna
Post by: Tank on April 19, 2017, 06:29:31 PM
I too await a reply.
Title: Re: Hello Magna
Post by: Velma on April 19, 2017, 08:01:22 PM
As much as I like to give people the benefit of a doubt, I too am having doubts about your sincerity, manga.
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 19, 2017, 11:30:39 PM
Me too.  :fingertap:

Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Arturo on April 19, 2017, 11:36:27 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 19, 2017, 11:43:03 PM
'Manga' is 'mango' in Portuguese, which is what I always think of when I see the username.

I'm hungry. :yum:
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Magdalena on April 20, 2017, 12:37:18 AM
I don't really care if manga is trying to, "plant seeds of doubt," or using, "all the weapons of mass deception."  :smileshake:

But I do think it's sad, sad, sad.  :felix:

In Spanish, manga means sleeve.
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Tank on April 20, 2017, 06:54:42 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on April 20, 2017, 12:37:18 AM
I don't really care if manga is trying to, "plant seeds of doubt," or using, "all the weapons of mass deception."  :smileshake:

But I do think it's sad, sad, sad.  :felix:

In Spanish, manga means sleeve.
??? What's wrong with a sleeve?
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Magdalena on April 20, 2017, 07:47:41 AM
Quote from: Tank on April 20, 2017, 06:54:42 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on April 20, 2017, 12:37:18 AM
I don't really care if manga is trying to, "plant seeds of doubt," or using, "all the weapons of mass deception."  :smileshake:
But I do think it's sad, sad, sad.  :felix:

In Spanish, manga means sleeve.
??? What's wrong with a sleeve?
:lol:
Nothing is wrong with a sleeve.

I was saying that I think it's sad that manga is probably using lies, and is talking about NDE, Jesus, the soul, the paranormal, out of body experiences, etc., just to try to convince someone that there is a god.

The, "In Spanish, manga means sleeve" statement I made is related to this:
Quote from: Arturo on April 19, 2017, 11:36:27 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 19, 2017, 11:43:03 PM
'Manga' is 'mango' in Portuguese, which is what I always think of when I see the username.

I'm hungry. :yum:

I'm sorry for the confusion.  ;D
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 20, 2017, 01:30:39 PM
Hehe ;D

It means 'sleeve' in Portuguese as well.
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: No one on April 20, 2017, 04:05:47 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.motortrend.com%2F_siteconfigs%2F_global%2Fimages%2Fcommunity%2Fbbcode%2Ficon_quote.gif&hash=7e397439145e530551380cd19bacaedf98bb1cd5) Tank:
??? What's wrong with a sleeve?

Nothing! (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.stardock.net%2Fimages%2Fsmiles%2Fthemes%2Fdigicons%2FGrin.png&hash=d4239eb6f79a97e68a4b1dd95885df308f6eb878)


Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Dave on April 20, 2017, 05:18:19 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 20, 2017, 06:54:42 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on April 20, 2017, 12:37:18 AM
I don't really care if manga is trying to, "plant seeds of doubt," or using, "all the weapons of mass deception."  :smileshake:

But I do think it's sad, sad, sad.  :felix:

In Spanish, manga means sleeve.
??? What's wrong with a sleeve?

Great for wiping your nose ifthere are no tissues handy!

Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Davin on April 20, 2017, 05:29:34 PM
I'm thinking of getting a sleeve tattoo.
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Biggus Dickus on April 20, 2017, 07:08:14 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 20, 2017, 05:29:34 PM
I'm thinking of getting a sleeve tattoo.

Like this?

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Ff7IomJR.jpg&hash=fad4a6758b8a6f1fb3c21078aa18ac4b1e3c0b7f)
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Dragonia on April 20, 2017, 07:13:30 PM
^^^HA! What IS that? WHY would someone do that to themselves? What could the meaning possibly be???
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Pasta Chick on April 20, 2017, 07:43:15 PM
It's Bubbles!!

(https://media.tenor.co/images/41a7f890829b1d96093cc3c6e293a42e/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Davin on April 20, 2017, 08:08:06 PM
I was, but now I can't, I have to think of an original one...

Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 21, 2017, 03:25:42 AM
^ I...can't unglue my eyes from the screen. I can't explain it.  :watching:
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Biggus Dickus on April 25, 2017, 09:25:56 PM
The more I look at this tattoo the more I like it....
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Ff7IomJR.jpg&hash=fad4a6758b8a6f1fb3c21078aa18ac4b1e3c0b7f)



Anyway I think you distrustful Atheists scared Manga away >:(
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 25, 2017, 11:28:59 PM
Quote from: Father Bruno on April 25, 2017, 09:25:56 PM

Anyway I think you distrustful Atheists scared Manga away >:(

I was toying with the idea of starting a pool on how long before Manga got bored and left us, but that seems overtaken by events.
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Arturo on April 26, 2017, 04:41:20 AM
Quote from: Father Bruno on April 25, 2017, 09:25:56 PM
The more I look at this tattoo the more I like it....
Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.


I think you would need some white ink unless you're a light skinned Mexican.
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Biggus Dickus on April 26, 2017, 03:55:46 PM
Quote from: Arturo on April 26, 2017, 04:41:20 AM
Quote from: Father Bruno on April 25, 2017, 09:25:56 PM
The more I look at this tattoo the more I like it....
Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.


I think you would need some white ink unless you're a light skinned Mexican.

I'm a light skinned Polack. 8)
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: OldGit on April 27, 2017, 09:51:40 AM
In the Acahuatl language of the Nacaposi tribe, Manga is a kind of green gloopy stuff that drips off Nacapetl trees and slithers down your neck.
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: manga on April 27, 2017, 09:50:21 PM
I see many people doubt my sincerity, and so here is my story, and hopefully you guys can understand where I am coming from. I was not aware of this thread until now, I apologize for this:
Ok, I'm 15, my family is originally from Ukraine, but of Turkish origin. I think they moved from Turkey to Ukraine many generations ago, so they practice Christian faith now. I was brought up in North America, so I attended a Catholic school. I remember I totally believed in God, and Catholicism. I used to pray every night, and I used to go to Church every so often. In my eyes, God created the earth, the first people were Adam and Eve, if a person is good during their lives, he or she goes to heaven. If they are bad, they go to hell. I remember I used to fear hell, as any typical Catholic practicing Christian would. I think all throughout elementary school, I didn't give much thought into it. In my first year of high school (last year), I went to a science museum with a school class. I had learned about the concept of evolution, but had barely considered it. At the museum, we looked at the evolution of a sloth, and other animals. Then, we were told about the Earth being billions of years old, and how the first life likely appeared on earth, based on current science. I thought to myself, "wow, this makes a whole lot more sense than that idea that two people randomly ended up here, and so on". I remember, from that, I already realized that the bible had issues. I thought to myself, "If I can't trust the whole bible, why would I trust any of it?". At that point, I kind of didn't believe that there was a creator anymore. However, I was somewhat nervous to acknowledge this. I had a few unknowns still that I could not explain. I thought that the majority of evidence for religion was lacking, and being maybe a little rebellious at that age, I decided to try atheism. I would say I was 80% there, and I kind of just pushed the last 20%. At first I was completely scared, as I still felt I was being watched, and that I may be in trouble, but I thought, "those are just my fears", so I kind of ignored them. One day not too long ago, a religious friend sent me a video of Howard Storm, the atheist who apparently died, saw hell, was tortured, and then when he came back he became a minister, as Jesus told him to do so. This scared me. I didn't even know about NDEs. I thought that there was no evidence of afterlife, so I pretty much rejected it. Suddenly, this seemed like it could be true. I became religious again and prayed for forgiveness. That totally scared the living daylights out of me. However, I researched the topic more, and found many explanations for NDEs, including G force pilots having OBEs when they lose blood supply to the brain, and some have pretty realistic hallucinations. However, then, with further reading, I found Dr. Long's work, which claims all these amazing statistics, and now I slightly fear again that Howard Storm, as well as Ian Mccormack, Don Brubaker, and other former atheists who claim to see hell actually saw it. The part of NDEs that I find unexplainable is that so many people claim to see things so clearly and that everything feels "more real" than real life. There are reports of blind NDErs, and reports of people going to places far away from their accidents, and verifying what took place. One man was able to visit his next door neighbour, who had a crying baby. He claims he could talk to the baby, and found the baby had a broken arm. When he woke up, he told his neighbours the news, and it was in fact true. Other people have been able to retell exactly what doctors did and said. Penny Sartori did a test where she asked patients who were totally out during their close brushes with death to try and guess what happened during their operations, and she claims they all got everything completely wrong, yet these NDErs tend to get so many things right. There are even cases of people healing after these NDEs. There seems to be some scientific explanation, but I feel that there are still very many grey areas here, and I do not know if these NDEs and OBEs can be dismissed just like that. I guess I would take comfort in knowing these are fake, because there are quite a few where atheists and Christians who do not go to Church end up in hell, and I really fear that. I would be so happy if I knew for a fact that there was no life after death, then I could enjoy my life more again.
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Biggus Dickus on April 28, 2017, 01:51:01 AM
Thank you for replying Manga, it goes a long way in establishing some trust with us.

I read your reply earlier, and then went to the gym to work out and while sweating my ass off I was thinking of a reply to your post, but I don't think I could come close to expressing myself as clearly and eloquently as Recusant did in your other introduction thread (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=15069.msg350438#new).

He brought up many of the things I was thinking of in my own reply to you, so I won't waste time repeating the same things, but I think the most important part of his response, and one I was going to mention was with regards to the very excellent responses you have received in various threads by other members of the forum, especially the comments of SolidSquid, and MariaEvri as outlined below in this quote from Recusant's reply.

QuoteIn various threads here people have provided references to sources which present evidence that contradicts the NDE narrative of genuine visits to the supposed afterlife. I thought the "A Ghost in the Machine" set of essays that MariaEvri posted was particularly good, as were various posts by solidsquid. The scientific evidence shows that our minds are a function of our brains, while there is no scientific evidence whatsoever for the existence of a non-physical entity that is independent of our body (a soul) that will survive the death of the body.

I think a good piece of advice as mentioned is for you is to go back and reread those threads, and focus on the links provided and try to grasp and understand what they are explaining to you, and then come back with follow up questions to those links and not bother posting additional material on what you feel are relevant NDE's or OBE's.

One other thing, at the end of your introduction post you say the following.

QuoteI would be so happy if I knew for a fact that there was no life after death, then I could enjoy my life more again.

I don't believe it is life after death you fear so much, but the christian narrative itself which states you have to live your life according to various religious standards and sets of rules.

It's the failure to live by these so called rules, such as going to church, being a non-believer, hating homosexuals, etc...that has you in a bind, not fear of an after-life. You're allowing yourself to be chained to these testaments of faith not because you embrace them, or believe them, but because you fear not to do so will result in punishment.

Answer me this Manga...whose the better person, the one who chooses not to steal money from an unsuspecting stranger because they know to do so is wrong based on the simple principle of fairness and equity, or the one who wants to steal, but doesn't because only becuase they fear the punishment of a vengeful god?

Hope to see you around the other threads, maybe as suggested you take a peak at the bookclub in the media section and pick up a free copy of the Carl Sagan book we're all reading, and then join us in an after discussion.

Peace


Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Dave on April 28, 2017, 05:13:37 AM
Manga, you are evidently a very intelligent person. However you evidently also have an active insgination that has been biased by some aspects in your life.

You therefore have a combination of traits that many would envy, that could give you a boost in science or art, including writing, or a combination of these. Perhaps even psychology or philosophy, the science and art, respectively, of unravelling human thought and understanding processes. As Father Bruno and others have said, please review what we atheists hold to be believable and how we "filter" this out of competing ideas.

Science does not have answers for all things - yet. A little mystery adds spice to life and stimulates thought, but it remains mystery, the currently unexplainable awaiting explanation. It is not a fact until it is explained and repeated or observed by others in an independent or objective manner. Religion is very rarely fully independent or objective, perhaps never in the final analysis. Science will probably never find all the answers, but answers there will be.  But, if there is no explainable, repeatable evidence and it does not directly impinge on life-as-lived then keep it on the "mystery shelf" and get on with living. You can always take it off the shelf for another look with greater experience and knowledge at a later date.

This does not deny the beauty existing in our universe, whether natural or man-made. That includes the physical and that purely of-the-mind. There is also a place for whimsy.

I tend towards the critical frame of mind but this does not stop me appreciating (OK, being a total fan of) science fiction, that often disregards our currently understood view of the scientifically possible, and fantasy and magic as creations of the human mind. This causes me no conflict, when I close the book, or turn off the video, the real world takes over again. I even find wisdom in the Bible, once all the "woo" is disregarded or the allegory is translated into modern terms.

From our grester ages it is all too easy to look back on the conflicts of youth with some frustration, even disdain. Even wen we have children of our own we still lose the full emotional understanding of those turbulent years for some. You can only come to your own understanding in the end, we can only offer advice from our personal points of view, firmed of our own genetic traits and experience/education. You have to weigh this with your own and find that which is "comfortable", which offers the least conflicts and fears. (Added later) However, please be wary of taking the "easy path", that line which "goes with the common flow", religion relies on that sheep-like behaviour for its power. You are a unique human and deserve to view youeelf as such, compromising and co-operating with others where necessary but preserving your independence where that does not seriously challenge your life.

PS, my appologies for any typing errors, I have a sight defect that causes me problems when typing on a tablet (as now). I edit but do miss some errors in large lumps of text.
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Magdalena on April 28, 2017, 06:17:52 AM
OK, Gloucester, but what are Opinions on Out of Body Experiences? Do you think that NDEs in children to be same as adults? Can I ask you a few questions about paranormal events? Did Jesus Rise from the Dead? Why or Why not?

Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Tank on April 28, 2017, 06:35:44 AM
Quote from: manga on April 27, 2017, 09:50:21 PM
I see many people doubt my sincerity, and so here is my story, and hopefully you guys can understand where I am coming from. I was not aware of this thread until now, I apologize for this:
Ok, I'm 15,...
This is what you said on day one. But you can't put an old head on young shoulders. Remember that the human mind works in part by filling in information about people they meet. If there is no current information we fall back on experience and internal stereotypes. Without input I tend to see/react to new members as a white 30 something males. Now you have told us about you loads of assumptions fall away. In my case that would include replacing experienced active arsehole with naive newbie. My reaction to those two different 'people' is very different.
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Arturo on April 28, 2017, 07:12:38 AM
You've been very patient and level headed manga, thank you. And I apologize for our rudeness. Moving on, I know this was addressed by Bruno but I'd like to take it in a slightly different direction.

QuoteI would be so happy if I knew for a fact that there was no life after death, then I could enjoy my life more again.

What Father Bruno said sounds objectively correct. That you are afraid of the Christian narrative of life after death. But there are other ideas about death from other religions, not just Christianity and Athiesm. Buddhists and Hindu's believe in reincarnation. That's the idea that you come back after you die as another animal. Some Native American tribes believe life is a loop and you eventually come back to where you were before. The Aztecs believed in a different sort of heaven where you move up and down different, how should I say this, "levels" where the different forces of nature take place.

The point is, you don't have to believe in the Christian idea of hell to believe there might be something after you die. All civilizations have done it so you're not alone. Even athiests sometimes wonder if we are wrong and there really might be something after death. But we never know until it happens and until then, for me, I want to spend this life as if it's the only one I have. Because it might be the only one. And if it's the only one, I want to make it a good one and not filled with turd.

Edited for clarity
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: manga on April 28, 2017, 09:48:43 PM
Quote from: Gloucester on April 28, 2017, 05:13:37 AM
Manga, you are evidently a very intelligent person. However you evidently also have an active insgination that has been biased by some aspects in your life.

You therefore have a combination of traits that many would envy, that could give you a boost in science or art, including writing, or a combination of these. Perhaps even psychology or philosophy, the science and art, respectively, of unravelling human thought and understanding processes. As Father Bruno and others have said, please review what we atheists hold to be believable and how we "filter" this out of competing ideas.

Science does not have answers for all things - yet. A little mystery adds spice to life and stimulates thought, but it remains mystery, the currently unexplainable awaiting explanation. It is not a fact until it is explained and repeated or observed by others in an independent or objective manner. Religion is very rarely fully independent or objective, perhaps never in the final analysis. Science will probably never find all the answers, but answers there will be.  But, if there is no explainable, repeatable evidence and it does not directly impinge on life-as-lived then keep it on the "mystery shelf" and get on with living. You can always take it off the shelf for another look with greater experience and knowledge at a later date.

This does not deny the beauty existing in our universe, whether natural or man-made. That includes the physical and that purely of-the-mind. There is also a place for whimsy.

I tend towards the critical frame of mind but this does not stop me appreciating (OK, being a total fan of) science fiction, that often disregards our currently understood view of the scientifically possible, and fantasy and magic as creations of the human mind. This causes me no conflict, when I close the book, or turn off the video, the real world takes over again. I even find wisdom in the Bible, once all the "woo" is disregarded or the allegory is translated into modern terms.

From our grester ages it is all too easy to look back on the conflicts of youth with some frustration, even disdain. Even wen we have children of our own we still lose the full emotional understanding of those turbulent years for some. You can only come to your own understanding in the end, we can only offer advice from our personal points of view, firmed of our own genetic traits and experience/education. You have to weigh this with your own and find that which is "comfortable", which offers the least conflicts and fears. (Added later) However, please be wary of taking the "easy path", that line which "goes with the common flow", religion relies on that sheep-like behaviour for its power. You are a unique human and deserve to view youeelf as such, compromising and co-operating with others where necessary but preserving your independence where that does not seriously challenge your life.

PS, my appologies for any typing errors, I have a sight defect that causes me problems when typing on a tablet (as now). I edit but do miss some errors in large lumps of text.

Thank you very much for your answer, it was kind, and thorough. I have noticed a common pattern on these forms that many atheists say that science does not have the answer for all things. I am beginning to realize that more and more. There are many things that we cannot explain, and just because we can't doesn't make them necessarily supernatural.  I think I just let my fear overcome rational thinking.
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: manga on April 28, 2017, 09:51:37 PM
Quote from: Arturo on April 28, 2017, 07:12:38 AM
You've been very patient and level headed manga, thank you. And I apologize for our rudeness. Moving on, I know this was addressed by Bruno but I'd like to take it in a slightly different direction.

QuoteI would be so happy if I knew for a fact that there was no life after death, then I could enjoy my life more again.

What Father Bruno said sounds objectively correct. That you are afraid of the Christian narrative of life after death. But there are other ideas about death from other religions, not just Christianity and Athiesm. Buddhists and Hindu's believe in reincarnation. That's the idea that you come back after you die as another animal. Some Native American tribes believe life is a loop and you eventually come back to where you were before. The Aztecs believed in a different sort of heaven where you move up and down different, how should I say this, "levels" where the different forces of nature take place.

The point is, you don't have to believe in the Christian idea of hell to believe there might be something after you die. All civilizations have done it so you're not alone. Even athiests sometimes wonder if we are wrong and there really might be something after death. But we never know until it happens and until then, for me, I want to spend this life as if it's the only one I have. Because it might be the only one. And if it's the only one, I want to make it a good one and not filled with turd.

Edited for clarity

That makes sense, I am only afraid because these NDEs seem to be the best kind of proof we have for afterlife (even though many would say they aren't proof at all), and usually the NDEs we read about reflect Christian faith. I do think it could be true that they could vary culturally. I think that it's true that we should assume that this is our only life, until objective evidence proves otherwise.
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: manga on April 28, 2017, 09:54:45 PM
Quote from: Father Bruno on April 28, 2017, 01:51:01 AM
Thank you for replying Manga, it goes a long way in establishing some trust with us.

I read your reply earlier, and then went to the gym to work out and while sweating my ass off I was thinking of a reply to your post, but I don't think I could come close to expressing myself as clearly and eloquently as Recusant did in your other introduction thread (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=15069.msg350438#new).

He brought up many of the things I was thinking of in my own reply to you, so I won't waste time repeating the same things, but I think the most important part of his response, and one I was going to mention was with regards to the very excellent responses you have received in various threads by other members of the forum, especially the comments of SolidSquid, and MariaEvri as outlined below in this quote from Recusant's reply.

QuoteIn various threads here people have provided references to sources which present evidence that contradicts the NDE narrative of genuine visits to the supposed afterlife. I thought the "A Ghost in the Machine" set of essays that MariaEvri posted was particularly good, as were various posts by solidsquid. The scientific evidence shows that our minds are a function of our brains, while there is no scientific evidence whatsoever for the existence of a non-physical entity that is independent of our body (a soul) that will survive the death of the body.

I think a good piece of advice as mentioned is for you is to go back and reread those threads, and focus on the links provided and try to grasp and understand what they are explaining to you, and then come back with follow up questions to those links and not bother posting additional material on what you feel are relevant NDE's or OBE's.

One other thing, at the end of your introduction post you say the following.

QuoteI would be so happy if I knew for a fact that there was no life after death, then I could enjoy my life more again.

I don't believe it is life after death you fear so much, but the christian narrative itself which states you have to live your life according to various religious standards and sets of rules.

It's the failure to live by these so called rules, such as going to church, being a non-believer, hating homosexuals, etc...that has you in a bind, not fear of an after-life. You're allowing yourself to be chained to these testaments of faith not because you embrace them, or believe them, but because you fear not to do so will result in punishment.

Answer me this Manga...whose the better person, the one who chooses not to steal money from an unsuspecting stranger because they know to do so is wrong based on the simple principle of fairness and equity, or the one who wants to steal, but doesn't because only becuase they fear the punishment of a vengeful god?

Hope to see you around the other threads, maybe as suggested you take a peak at the bookclub in the media section and pick up a free copy of the Carl Sagan book we're all reading, and then join us in an after discussion.

Peace
thank you for your answer, and I will look into the links that have been provided. I would have to agree that an atheist who does not steal is better than a theist who does not because they are afraid that they may be punished, as that would not be genuine. I think that if we ever do confirm for a fact that NDEs are visions of hell are not real, that the most logical explanation for the concept of hell then, would have been to control people who were stealing, murdering, raping, etc. It could be that fear would have been the only method at that time to keep society in check.
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Arturo on April 28, 2017, 10:34:36 PM
Quote from: manga on April 28, 2017, 09:51:37 PM
Quote from: Arturo on April 28, 2017, 07:12:38 AM
You've been very patient and level headed manga, thank you. And I apologize for our rudeness. Moving on, I know this was addressed by Bruno but I'd like to take it in a slightly different direction.

QuoteI would be so happy if I knew for a fact that there was no life after death, then I could enjoy my life more again.

What Father Bruno said sounds objectively correct. That you are afraid of the Christian narrative of life after death. But there are other ideas about death from other religions, not just Christianity and Athiesm. Buddhists and Hindu's believe in reincarnation. That's the idea that you come back after you die as another animal. Some Native American tribes believe life is a loop and you eventually come back to where you were before. The Aztecs believed in a different sort of heaven where you move up and down different, how should I say this, "levels" where the different forces of nature take place.

The point is, you don't have to believe in the Christian idea of hell to believe there might be something after you die. All civilizations have done it so you're not alone. Even athiests sometimes wonder if we are wrong and there really might be something after death. But we never know until it happens and until then, for me, I want to spend this life as if it's the only one I have. Because it might be the only one. And if it's the only one, I want to make it a good one and not filled with turd.

Edited for clarity

That makes sense, I am only afraid because these NDEs seem to be the best kind of proof we have for afterlife (even though many would say they aren't proof at all), and usually the NDEs we read about reflect Christian faith. I do think it could be true that they could vary culturally. I think that it's true that we should assume that this is our only life, until objective evidence proves otherwise.

That is a good point. I haven't looked into it myself but they say that near death experiences always follow the religion the person is in. For example Catholics in Mexico might see Mary or Buddhists might see, I don't know, Buddha. I think NDEs might vary culturally because if not, why have a different religion with a different idea of the afterlife? Shouldn't it all be the same if we are all seeing the same? Anyways, I think you should continue looking into NDEs and look for some from different cultures that are not so related to ours. Like Asian, African, & Aboriginals from around the world. Because ike you said, the ones we read about reflect christianity but we know there are many other religions around the world, so we know there is an attentional bias and maybe a confirmation bias that needs to be rooted out to see the truer picture.

You see when you do research, you need to consider all you can, otherwise you are just shutting out other information that might help you understand what it is you want to understand (or shut out information that might help you answer your question). Be skeptical sure, but give yourself a good reason based on truth for that. And give your beliefs a good reason for existing, also based on truth. And make it verifiable to you and to other people​ you might inform. That makes it much more believable when someone who tries to prove you wrong and ends up showing to themself, and everyone else, that you're right. If they aren't willing to check your work, then they're not willing to move beyond their limited view.
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: manga on April 29, 2017, 04:32:21 AM
Quote from: Arturo on April 28, 2017, 10:34:36 PM
Quote from: manga on April 28, 2017, 09:51:37 PM
Quote from: Arturo on April 28, 2017, 07:12:38 AM
You've been very patient and level headed manga, thank you. And I apologize for our rudeness. Moving on, I know this was addressed by Bruno but I'd like to take it in a slightly different direction.

QuoteI would be so happy if I knew for a fact that there was no life after death, then I could enjoy my life more again.

What Father Bruno said sounds objectively correct. That you are afraid of the Christian narrative of life after death. But there are other ideas about death from other religions, not just Christianity and Athiesm. Buddhists and Hindu's believe in reincarnation. That's the idea that you come back after you die as another animal. Some Native American tribes believe life is a loop and you eventually come back to where you were before. The Aztecs believed in a different sort of heaven where you move up and down different, how should I say this, "levels" where the different forces of nature take place.

The point is, you don't have to believe in the Christian idea of hell to believe there might be something after you die. All civilizations have done it so you're not alone. Even athiests sometimes wonder if we are wrong and there really might be something after death. But we never know until it happens and until then, for me, I want to spend this life as if it's the only one I have. Because it might be the only one. And if it's the only one, I want to make it a good one and not filled with turd.

Edited for clarity

That makes sense, I am only afraid because these NDEs seem to be the best kind of proof we have for afterlife (even though many would say they aren't proof at all), and usually the NDEs we read about reflect Christian faith. I do think it could be true that they could vary culturally. I think that it's true that we should assume that this is our only life, until objective evidence proves otherwise.

That is a good point. I haven't looked into it myself but they say that near death experiences always follow the religion the person is in. For example Catholics in Mexico might see Mary or Buddhists might see, I don't know, Buddha. I think NDEs might vary culturally because if not, why have a different religion with a different idea of the afterlife? Shouldn't it all be the same if we are all seeing the same? Anyways, I think you should continue looking into NDEs and look for some from different cultures that are not so related to ours. Like Asian, African, & Aboriginals from around the world. Because ike you said, the ones we read about reflect christianity but we know there are many other religions around the world, so we know there is an attentional bias and maybe a confirmation bias that needs to be rooted out to see the truer picture.

You see when you do research, you need to consider all you can, otherwise you are just shutting out other information that might help you understand what it is you want to understand (or shut out information that might help you answer your question). Be skeptical sure, but give yourself a good reason based on truth for that. And give your beliefs a good reason for existing, also based on truth. And make it verifiable to you and to other people​ you might inform. That makes it much more believable when someone who tries to prove you wrong and ends up showing to themself, and everyone else, that you're right. If they aren't willing to check your work, then they're not willing to move beyond their limited view.

Dr. Long would argue there are no cultural differences, as everyone sees the same things but interprets them differently. However, other NDE researchers do say that it varies from culture to culture. I have found one or two accounts from the Hindu faith which differ. One thing I find weird is that I have never (despite hours of research) found an NDE where a Muslim meets Muhammad. It seems that Christians see Jesus sometimes, and Muslims have similar NDEs without a particular deity shown. There have also been no cases where Buddhists see Buddha. Of course, Christians take the fact that there are no known accounts of meetings with Muhammad or Buddha to mean that Christianity is "obviously" correct, and that since they see Jesus, that he really is the son of God. Although this can be difficult to explain, I know that there are only about 30 NDE cases actually published from the Muslim world, from Iran and Uzbekistan. None of these mentioned Muhammad, but still, 30 cases compared to a few thousand isn't really a fair comparison. Although I would need verification on this, it could be that some Muslims would not even want to mention if they did in fact see Muhammad during an NDE. I emailed Matt Dillahunty about this, and he thought that even if it were true that Christians saw Jesus but Muslims didn't see Muhammad, that it wouldn't necessarily prove Christianity correct.
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Dave on April 29, 2017, 04:47:42 AM
QuoteI have noticed a common pattern on these forms that many atheists say that science does not have the answer for all things. I am beginning to realize that more and more.

But, remember also, Manga, that this also applies - if an answer is eventually found it will be a scientifically based one. If "God" is eventually found to exist "He" will then be a scientific fact!

Until then "He" is another part of that huge cloud of the unknown, open to interpretation by those willing to do so, for spiritual or mundane purposes.. But answers are out there waiting to be discovered. Mayve you, in your studies, will find one or two! But remember the difference between an abstract concept and a valid hypothesis. The forner nsy be inspirational but latter is more limely to be the true foundation for discovery.
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Dave on April 29, 2017, 05:16:00 AM
QuoteDr. Long would argue there are no cultural differences, as everyone sees the same things but interprets them differently.

If so the doctor has ensured  that he has a get-out clause for almost anything he wants to claim!

I feel it is that very cultural difference that causes the different perceptions. In the witchetty grub I see a fat, living, squirming lava that I would think twice before handling. The Australian aborigine sees a tasty snack. Once he has bitten the hard head parts off and spat them out. Yet, toast it to a golden brown and...

When I see religious art I consider first its quality of work*, then its symbolic nature and value and how that is perceived by others. It may even move me with its beauty, but it will have no "spiritual" value beyond a similar reaction to a purely secular work of art. The English of the King James bible is glorious, but the meaning of the concepts behind those words is a matter for interpretation into the "real" world for me.

"Real" in quotes because every person's perception is, in detail, unique.

*I have the misoirtune to be as much a "technician" as I am a "philosopher" (though not brilliant at either) - the two live uncomfortably together at times. At other times they produce interesting (to me) hybrid ideas!
Title: Re: Hello Manga
Post by: Arturo on April 29, 2017, 05:28:13 AM
Quote from: manga on April 29, 2017, 04:32:21 AM
Quote from: Arturo on April 28, 2017, 10:34:36 PM
Quote from: manga on April 28, 2017, 09:51:37 PM
Quote from: Arturo on April 28, 2017, 07:12:38 AM
You've been very patient and level headed manga, thank you. And I apologize for our rudeness. Moving on, I know this was addressed by Bruno but I'd like to take it in a slightly different direction.

QuoteI would be so happy if I knew for a fact that there was no life after death, then I could enjoy my life more again.

What Father Bruno said sounds objectively correct. That you are afraid of the Christian narrative of life after death. But there are other ideas about death from other religions, not just Christianity and Athiesm. Buddhists and Hindu's believe in reincarnation. That's the idea that you come back after you die as another animal. Some Native American tribes believe life is a loop and you eventually come back to where you were before. The Aztecs believed in a different sort of heaven where you move up and down different, how should I say this, "levels" where the different forces of nature take place.

The point is, you don't have to believe in the Christian idea of hell to believe there might be something after you die. All civilizations have done it so you're not alone. Even athiests sometimes wonder if we are wrong and there really might be something after death. But we never know until it happens and until then, for me, I want to spend this life as if it's the only one I have. Because it might be the only one. And if it's the only one, I want to make it a good one and not filled with turd.

Edited for clarity

That makes sense, I am only afraid because these NDEs seem to be the best kind of proof we have for afterlife (even though many would say they aren't proof at all), and usually the NDEs we read about reflect Christian faith. I do think it could be true that they could vary culturally. I think that it's true that we should assume that this is our only life, until objective evidence proves otherwise.

That is a good point. I haven't looked into it myself but they say that near death experiences always follow the religion the person is in. For example Catholics in Mexico might see Mary or Buddhists might see, I don't know, Buddha. I think NDEs might vary culturally because if not, why have a different religion with a different idea of the afterlife? Shouldn't it all be the same if we are all seeing the same? Anyways, I think you should continue looking into NDEs and look for some from different cultures that are not so related to ours. Like Asian, African, & Aboriginals from around the world. Because ike you said, the ones we read about reflect christianity but we know there are many other religions around the world, so we know there is an attentional bias and maybe a confirmation bias that needs to be rooted out to see the truer picture.

You see when you do research, you need to consider all you can, otherwise you are just shutting out other information that might help you understand what it is you want to understand (or shut out information that might help you answer your question). Be skeptical sure, but give yourself a good reason based on truth for that. And give your beliefs a good reason for existing, also based on truth. And make it verifiable to you and to other people​ you might inform. That makes it much more believable when someone who tries to prove you wrong and ends up showing to themself, and everyone else, that you're right. If they aren't willing to check your work, then they're not willing to move beyond their limited view.

Dr. Long would argue there are no cultural differences, as everyone sees the same things but interprets them differently. However, other NDE researchers do say that it varies from culture to culture. I have found one or two accounts from the Hindu faith which differ. One thing I find weird is that I have never (despite hours of research) found an NDE where a Muslim meets Muhammad. It seems that Christians see Jesus sometimes, and Muslims have similar NDEs without a particular deity shown. There have also been no cases where Buddhists see Buddha. Of course, Christians take the fact that there are no known accounts of meetings with Muhammad or Buddha to mean that Christianity is "obviously" correct, and that since they see Jesus, that he really is the son of God. Although this can be difficult to explain, I know that there are only about 30 NDE cases actually published from the Muslim world, from Iran and Uzbekistan. None of these mentioned Muhammad, but still, 30 cases compared to a few thousand isn't really a fair comparison. Although I would need verification on this, it could be that some Muslims would not even want to mention if they did in fact see Muhammad during an NDE. I emailed Matt Dillahunty about this, and he thought that even if it were true that Christians saw Jesus but Muslims didn't see Muhammad, that it wouldn't necessarily prove Christianity correct.

Yes, Muslims are not allowed to have images of Muhammad but they seem to take this as not seeing Muhammad according to your story. Buddhists aren't particularly concerned with dieties as they see them as one in a state that anyone can achieve, so they're just one of them. I think Buddhist NDEs are more like they see themselves floating around somewhere that is completely foriegn to what we know.

But I also think it's a bit ego centric to think because other religions don't see what Christians consider their central figures to be, then their religion is correct. Because the Christians are defining the other religions, they are more or less projecting their own religious identity onto the other ones. So they aren't trying to look beyond their own nose. Which can be problematic if you want to be factual. But it is something they are indoctrinated to believe because they are told all religions stem from theirs. So what I think the question here is, what if it's not? How can you be sure your religion is the one that started it all? How do you know where religions even came from at all? What if in the beginning of religions, there was more than one religion like there is now? What if there were no religions?

Anyways I think I have done enough ranting.