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Anthropic principle

Started by lifeatlast, July 01, 2008, 09:04:04 AM

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Whitney

Life,

I was trying to discuss the issue with you like I would with any other person who is interested in philosophy (which I assumed  you were since you brought up the anthropic principle).  But, so far it has been like pulling teeth to get you to explain the logic behind your conclusions.  It's not always about agreeing... sometimes it's just about being able to discuss so we can at least see how the other person reached their conclusion.  Does that make sense?   :confused:

lifeatlast

Quote from: "laetusatheos"Life,

I was trying to discuss the issue with you like I would with any other person who is interested in philosophy (which I assumed  you were since you brought up the anthropic principle).  But, so far it has been like pulling teeth to get you to explain the logic behind your conclusions.  It's not always about agreeing... sometimes it's just about being able to discuss so we can at least see how the other person reached their conclusion.  Does that make sense?   :))))))

Whitney

Let me get this straight...you think god exists because apparent fine tuning leads you to assume a creator and because things are pretty?

jcm

Quote from: "lifeatlast"why would clouds of atoms feel love, feel anything?

why not? why could that never happen?

how does a cloud of atoms create gold, computers, sound, ants, spider monkeys, mountains or apple pies?

a cloud of atoms can also creates molecules, organelles, cells, tissues, organs, organ systems, and organisms
an organism's brain (including human brains) have the ability to acquire, store, and process information. without your brain you would not feel anything and you (on a conscious level) would not exist. why is it more than that?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -cs

lifeatlast

Quote from: "laetusatheos"Let me get this straight...you think god exists because apparent fine tuning leads you to assume a creator and because things are pretty?


well, in so many words, yes.

but i still think your missing my point :lol:  check it. why should we appreciate a sun set?

lifeatlast

Quote from: "jcm"
Quote from: "lifeatlast"why would clouds of atoms feel love, feel anything?

why not? why could that never happen?
[/qoute]

no.

Quotehow does a cloud of atoms create gold, computers, sound, ants, spider monkeys, mountains or apple pies?

your asking me? i'm asking you!!! hahah. i say becasue of God eh....
Quotewithout your brain you would not feel anything and you (on a conscious level) would not exist. why is it more than that?

and your concious level wouldn't exist of not for God. hmm, this should be in another thread now i think... :lol:

Atheist Mother

“Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions”  - Jerry Falwell
“I want three words [on my tombstone]: 'Woman, Atheist, Anarchist'. That's me ”- Madalyn Murray O'Hair

jcm

Quote from: "lifeatlast"any books you think i'd be into i'm open as well. no lie man. :lol:

go to itunes and download the audiobook of a brief history of time and listen to it several times. this is a good summary of the last 300 years in physics. find out for yourself how the universe really works based on testing it, not based on the trust of anicent human superstitions.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -cs

McQ

Quote from: "jcm"
Quote from: "lifeatlast"any books you think i'd be into i'm open as well. no lie man. :lol:

go to itunes and download the audiobook of a brief history of time and listen to it several times. this is a good summary of the last 300 years in physics. find out for yourself how the universe really works based on testing it, not based on the trust of anicent human superstitions.

I would have to disagree with starting out with this book for someone new to what lifeatlast is talking about. First, his issues seems to keep coming back to the field of neurobiology ("why do we appreciate a sunset?", for example), not cosmology or astronomy. Second, Hawking's book is a popular one for people to throw around as a reference, but it's not an easy read, and it's not as comprehensive as more recent books.

Don't get me wrong, I still have a copy of it and from time to time I look at it, but I would go more with basic books on critical thinking first. I think lifeatlast would tire quickly of Hawking.  

I recommend Demon Haunted World, by Carl Sagan, and some basic popular books on physics and biology first.
Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Jillette

mrwynd

the term "fine tuned" confuses me. If the universe was any different and we were to still exist, would it still be "fine tuned"? There is no other existence or universe to compare to, to say this one is "fine tuned". If we were made out of different elements and breathed something other than oxygen, would it still be said that our universe is fine tuned? We know this existence works because we are here to discuss it, that doesn't make it perfect or necessarily unique.

If the universe is so exact that it must have a creator, who created the creator? To point at creation is to give all of nature a human quality. The only things that are created are things humans create. Rocks, earth, etc are formed over time and when you point and say "that was created" you are just putting a human trait on nature.

Is it more plausible that Noah, on his ark, brought over 2000 species of beetles (with mates), or that these beetles evolved from a smaller pool of beetles in the past? Non-Christians just made up, and continue to make up fossils? The only thing that can be pointed at to discredit evolution/natural selection/reproductive selection is an old book? There's certainly a lot more red flags that come up when you get into the nitty-gritty of "creation".

lifeatlast

Quote from: "mrwynd"who created the creator?

basic question. many answers. one would be http://answersingenesis.org/tj/v12/i1/universe.asp

lifeatlast


lifeatlast

Quote from: "McQ"
Quote from: "jcm"I recommend Demon Haunted World, by Carl Sagan, and some basic popular books on physics and biology first.

i will see. i like philosophical more than science though...

myleviathan

Quote from: "lifeatlast"but even a bfief study of it ought to make one think, wow, thoses odds are small. i'm not talking like maybe it happened...every single element has to be how it is for what we have. each odd, stacked upon the other is clear evidence to me of a creator.

Evidence of a creator? The universe exists to support life? If God created the universe to support life, he sure did a crappy job. Every day this planet hangs on the balance of ultimate destruction in a universe extremely hostile to the elements critical for life. It's only been in the very recent past that the human lifespan has been long enough to contemplate anything else but reproduction. And that's only thanks to human effort.
"On the moon our weekends are so far advanced they encompass the entire week. Jobs have been phased out. We get checks from the government, and we spend it on beer! Mexican beer! That's the cheapest of all beers." --- Ignignokt & Err

lifeatlast

Quote from: "myleviathan"
Quote from: "lifeatlast"but even a bfief study of it ought to make one think, wow, thoses odds are small. i'm not talking like maybe it happened...every single element has to be how it is for what we have. each odd, stacked upon the other is clear evidence to me of a creator.

Evidence of a creator? The universe exists to support life? If God created the universe to support life, he sure did a crappy job. Every day this planet hangs on the balance of ultimate destruction in a universe extremely hostile to the elements critical for life. It's only been in the very recent past that the human lifespan has been long enough to contemplate anything else but reproduction. And that's only thanks to human effort.

human lifespan? did we used to die younger? like 18?

crappy job? heh. oh yeah. what was i thinking.

Dr. Carl Sagan once calculated the probability of man evolving (via macroevolutiuon/abiogenesis) at 1 chance in 10 to the 2 billionth power. Likewise, Muncaster calculated the probability of an evolutionary start of mankind by calculating the probability of randomly producing a single living cell at 1 chance in 10 to the 100 billionth power. Since Borel's Single Law of Chance states that beyond 1 chance in 10 to the 50th power events never occur, I'd say that both Sagan and Muncaster proved the chance of life via evolution to be zero.

anyways. we'll never agree then. see ya later.