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Community => Life As An Atheist => Topic started by: Tank on August 10, 2018, 02:34:11 PM

Title: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Tank on August 10, 2018, 02:34:11 PM
I have often read things like " All of us are born atheist, then most of us get indoctrinated into something else".

I used to agree with this, but now I don't.

What do you think?
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Dave on August 10, 2018, 03:17:30 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 10, 2018, 02:34:11 PM
I have often read things like " All of us are born atheist, then most of us get indoctrinated into something else".

I used to agree with this, but now I don't.

What do you think?

It's interesting that you have changed your opinion, Tank, it begs a question!

I will consider "theism" as any beleief in the supernatural, of any kind.

Short of the very basic perceptions -  basically of anything that annoys a newborn -  I have always thought that us humans are born as a "tabla rasa". But do we have a genetic "toolkit" that is merely awaiting the appropriate trigger? If we do have that "god gene" in that box then it could be said we are all "theists" at some early point, before experience and education modify things.

Not theists in terms of the Abrahamic god but available to, or even needing, some form of external agency/authority beyond our family or teachers. Personally I cannot remember ever feeling the "passion" of any kind of theism, it did not snswer enough of my questions. So, maybe, I had such a strong curiosity gene it swamped the god gene?

Hmm, I will go for being born an atheist, or so close it does not matter.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: No one on August 10, 2018, 06:08:01 PM
We're all born blank. Devoid of any conclusions. However, not having any knowledge is entirely different than making an informed decision.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Tank on August 10, 2018, 06:11:39 PM
Quote from: No one on August 10, 2018, 06:08:01 PM
We're all born blank. Devoid of any conclusions. However, not having any knowledge is entirely different than making an informed decision.

:)
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on August 10, 2018, 08:38:25 PM
Quote from: No one on August 10, 2018, 06:08:01 PM
We're all born blank. Devoid of any conclusions. However, not having any knowledge is entirely different than making an informed decision.

Agreed. However, what qualifies as an "informed decision" may differ from person to person, depending on experiences they have had.  Individual experiences inform our decision-making process as much or more than pure evidence-based reason.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Sandra Craft on August 10, 2018, 09:32:39 PM
Quote from: No one on August 10, 2018, 06:08:01 PM
We're all born blank. Devoid of any conclusions. However, not having any knowledge is entirely different than making an informed decision.

I go along with that.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Tank on August 10, 2018, 10:01:14 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on August 10, 2018, 08:38:25 PM
Quote from: No one on August 10, 2018, 06:08:01 PM
We're all born blank. Devoid of any conclusions. However, not having any knowledge is entirely different than making an informed decision.

Agreed. However, what qualifies as an "informed decision" may differ from person to person, depending on experiences they have had.  Individual experiences inform our decision-making process as much or more than pure evidence-based reason.

Which is exactly why religions do their utmost to indoctrinate kids as early as possible. If they can install Religion 1.0 in a child's mind they have virtually won the race to ownership of that mind for life. And that is also why it has a limpet like grip in later life and why it is such a struggle to remove it.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Tank on August 11, 2018, 08:30:43 AM
I am of the opinion that we are born as a 'clean sheet' neither theist or atheist. To be an atheist one has to be aware of the concept of theism and then to reject it.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Dave on August 11, 2018, 08:49:14 AM
Quote from: Tank on August 11, 2018, 08:30:43 AM
I am of the opinion that we are born as a 'clean sheet' neither theist or atheist. To be an atheist one has to be aware of the concept of theism and then to reject it.

I am going to challenge that, Tank.   :grin:

Does one need to have knowledge of something and then conciously reject it to be "without" it? Is not the person that has no knowledge of even the concept of god not also "without god"? Does the newborn baby have any such concept?

This is the old trouble with the label, it inherently assumes the possible existence of a god to be able to reject it. "Realist" might be better label, a newborn is hardly that!
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Tank on August 11, 2018, 09:18:08 AM
Quote from: Dave on August 11, 2018, 08:49:14 AM
Quote from: Tank on August 11, 2018, 08:30:43 AM
I am of the opinion that we are born as a 'clean sheet' neither theist or atheist. To be an atheist one has to be aware of the concept of theism and then to reject it.

I am going to challenge that, Tank.   :grin:

Does one need to have knowledge of something and then conciously reject it to be "without" it? Is not the person that has no knowledge of even the concept of god not also "without god"? Does the newborn baby have any such concept?

This is the old trouble with the label, it inherently assumes the possible existence of a god to be able to reject it. "Realist" might be better label, a newborn is hardly that!

But babies are not born theistic either.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Dave on August 11, 2018, 11:56:24 AM
Quote from: Tank on August 11, 2018, 09:18:08 AM
Quote from: Dave on August 11, 2018, 08:49:14 AM
Quote from: Tank on August 11, 2018, 08:30:43 AM
I am of the opinion that we are born as a 'clean sheet' neither theist or atheist. To be an atheist one has to be aware of the concept of theism and then to reject it.

I am going to challenge that, Tank.   :grin:

Does one need to have knowledge of something and then conciously reject it to be "without" it? Is not the person that has no knowledge of even the concept of god not also "without god"? Does the newborn baby have any such concept?

This is the old trouble with the label, it inherently assumes the possible existence of a god to be able to reject it. "Realist" might be better label, a newborn is hardly that!

But babies are not born theistic either.

Yes, true!

I can see where I found dispute but cannot seem to express it clearly - that problem revolves (for ne) with the very word "atheist".  I will meditate on it whilst I have lunch. No guarantee of resolution is implied!
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Tank on August 11, 2018, 04:00:32 PM
Quote from: Dave on August 11, 2018, 11:56:24 AM
Quote from: Tank on August 11, 2018, 09:18:08 AM
Quote from: Dave on August 11, 2018, 08:49:14 AM
Quote from: Tank on August 11, 2018, 08:30:43 AM
I am of the opinion that we are born as a 'clean sheet' neither theist or atheist. To be an atheist one has to be aware of the concept of theism and then to reject it.

I am going to challenge that, Tank.   :grin:

Does one need to have knowledge of something and then conciously reject it to be "without" it? Is not the person that has no knowledge of even the concept of god not also "without god"? Does the newborn baby have any such concept?

This is the old trouble with the label, it inherently assumes the possible existence of a god to be able to reject it. "Realist" might be better label, a newborn is hardly that!

But babies are not born theistic either.

Yes, true!

I can see where I found dispute but cannot seem to express it clearly - that problem revolves (for ne) with the very word "atheist".  I will meditate on it whilst I have lunch. No guarantee of resolution is implied!

We are suffering from the inadequacy of language. Wittgenstein would be proud.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Recusant on August 11, 2018, 07:23:13 PM
In supporting the definition of "atheism" as lacking belief in deities, one could take the position that infants are atheists. However, I'd say that awareness of the purported existence of something is required before one can hold a position on its existence. Somebody who isn't mentally equipped to take a position one way or another on a question, or even comprehend the existence of the question, cannot be said to belong to a distinct category in relation to that question beyond "unaware."

I suppose to clarify this, one could define "atheism" as rejection of belief in deities. That might appear to lean toward hard atheism; the claim that deities definitely do not exist, which certainly doesn't describe all atheists. In the interest of an inclusive description of atheism as a whole, I think I'll stick with "lacking," and happily explain why if somebody wants to question it. I agree with Tank: people are not born atheist anymore than they're born believing in a deity.

Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Icarus on August 11, 2018, 08:26:07 PM
There are arguments that insist that an unborn child can be influenced by the behavior and/or environment of the mother.  A propensity for music for example.  If that argument has any traction then the infant of a fundamentalist might be born with at least a tendency toward theism.

In the case of an atheist mother, prenatal spiritual influences might be  less likely to affect the brain of the unborn.  Atheists do not regularly go to church, sing hymns, recite bible passages, say grace, praise God, or other vocalizations of that sort.. 

:shrug:
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Dave on August 11, 2018, 08:39:12 PM
Quote from: Icarus on August 11, 2018, 08:26:07 PM
There are arguments that insist that an unborn child can be influenced by the behavior and/or environment of the mother.  A propensity for music for example.  If that argument has any traction then the infant of a fundamentalist might be born with at least a tendency toward theism.

In the case of an atheist mother, prenatal spiritual influences might be  less likely to affect the brain of the unborn.  Atheists do not regularly go to church, sing hymns, recite bible passages, say grace, praise God, or other vocalizations of that sort.. 

:shrug:

I can see music, and arguing etc, affecting the unborn kid. I had a fried who plugged in two sets of headphones, one on her head, the other on the bump - soft classics, folk and pop, no harsh stuff. The kid was very placid when born, especially when mudic wasbplayed.

But I cannot see the belief bring passed over. That mother might relax more, or feel passionste, when certain rrligious piecescare plsyed and the newborn reacting to similar rythms placidly or excitedly - yes. But I think the association involves the mother's hormonal state and the rhythm of the music rather than its "esoteric" intent.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Bluenose on August 12, 2018, 04:13:25 AM
As far as I am concerned the word atheist means without belief in a god or gods. There is no implication in that lack of belief that there is knowledge of any alleged gods.  Whether a person knows that some gods have been posited or not is only a relevant question if that person believes in one or more.  A person who has never heard of any gods (for example a baby) is nevertheless and necessarily without belief in any, thus an atheist.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: hermes2015 on August 12, 2018, 05:16:16 AM
Quote from: Bluenose on August 12, 2018, 04:13:25 AM
A person who has never heard of any gods (for example a baby) is nevertheless and necessarily without belief in any, thus an atheist.

I agree. Furthermore, the baby cannot not see him- or herself as an atheist, but we, as the baby's observers, describe him or her as an atheist.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Recusant on August 12, 2018, 11:19:14 AM
Quote from: Bluenose on August 12, 2018, 04:13:25 AM
As far as I am concerned the word atheist means without belief in a god or gods. There is no implication in that lack of belief that there is knowledge of any alleged gods.  Whether a person knows that some gods have been posited or not is only a relevant question if that person believes in one or more.  A person who has never heard of any gods (for example a baby) is nevertheless and necessarily without belief in any, thus an atheist.

So, are cockroaches and amoebas atheist? A religious person can tell a baby about their god, so the baby would have heard about the god. However the baby is incapable of comprehending the concept of gods, just as a cockroach and an amoeba.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Dave on August 12, 2018, 11:35:21 AM
Quote from: Recusant on August 12, 2018, 11:19:14 AM
Quote from: Bluenose on August 12, 2018, 04:13:25 AM
As far as I am concerned the word atheist means without belief in a god or gods. There is no implication in that lack of belief that there is knowledge of any alleged gods.  Whether a person knows that some gods have been posited or not is only a relevant question if that person believes in one or more.  A person who has never heard of any gods (for example a baby) is nevertheless and necessarily without belief in any, thus an atheist.

So, are cockroaches and amoebas atheist? A religious person can tell a baby about their god, so the baby would have heard about the god, but is incapable of comprehending the concept of gods, just as a cockroach and an amoeba.

A very good point!
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Bluenose on August 12, 2018, 12:38:01 PM
Well, show me a theist cockroach.  All cockroaches, and amoebas, to be fair, are by definition atheists.  That they are incapable of being theists is beside the point of their lacking belief.  Saying that a being has to be capable of understanding what a god is supposed to be in order to reject the concept is simply playing the game of those theists that claim atheism is a religion.  It is no more than a lack of belief, end of story.  To be an atheist does not require a rejection of the god principle, just because most of us started out being indoctrinated into one religion or another (Roman Catholicism in my case).  Babies (at least newborn ones), cockroaches and amoebas all are incapable of belief in gods, so they are therefore atheist.  I haver a colleague who was never introduced to the idea of a god or gods, other than an idea that is is an antiquated belief (think Zeus, etc).  On several occasions I have had to explain one or another of the xtian belief so that he couols understand something in the context of some discussion or other, because he was not brought up in that tradition.  When he eventually was introduced to the concept of a god he THEN rejected the idea as arrant nonsense, but he was an atheist before that point, not just after.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Dave on August 12, 2018, 01:15:56 PM
Atheist by fact of possesing no concept of deity (regardless of species) or atheist by choosing refuse to accept that concept, either becsuse it mskes no sense or from "rebellion"? This label makes less sense the more I read.

WE NEED ANOTHER LABEL!

:grin:
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Bluenose on August 12, 2018, 01:48:17 PM
Actually Dave, I look forward to the day when we don't need the label at all.  When religion eventually dies out (although I seriously doubt it will be in my lifetime) there will be no need to have a label.  Until that time those who don't believe in any of the thousands of gods that have been proposed will remain atheist.  After that time we will still be atheist, but the distinction won't matter any more.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Dave on August 12, 2018, 01:58:13 PM
Quote from: Bluenose on August 12, 2018, 01:48:17 PM
Actually Dave, I look forward to the day when we don't need the label at all.  When religion eventually dies out (although I seriously doubt it will be in my lifetime) there will be no need to have a label.  Until that time those who don't believe in any of the thousands of gods that have been proposed will remain atheist.  After that time we will still be atheist, but the distinction won't matter any more.

Bring on that day!

Oh, providing, as in the other thread, a suitable, recognised, ethical system is in place.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Recusant on August 12, 2018, 04:11:06 PM
Quote from: Bluenose on August 12, 2018, 12:38:01 PM
Well, show me a theist cockroach.  All cockroaches, and amoebas, to be fair, are by definition atheists.  That they are incapable of being theists is beside the point of their lacking belief.

As I understand it, atheism is a position taken on the question of the existence of deities. An atheist does not believe that deities exist. You're describing the absence of any position and claiming that absence represents a position. Just as there are no theist cockroaches (nor atheist for that matter) there are no theist babies. The expansive claim that entities incapable of comprehending the concept of gods are atheists renders the term meaningless in my opinion.

So let me understand your thoughts on this. Do you stop with amoebas? Or do you also think that trees and rocks (which certainly lack a belief in deities) are atheist as well?

Quote from: Bluenose on August 12, 2018, 12:38:01 PMSaying that a being has to be capable of understanding what a god is supposed to be in order to reject the concept is simply playing the game of those theists that claim atheism is a religion.

I don't understand the link here. How is it "playing the game of theists who claim atheism is a religion" to support the idea that before a relation of any sort to a posited entity can be recognized, one must at least be aware of the supposed existence of that entity?

Anyway I don't care what theists claim--I care about whether the concept has a useful meaning. "All babies are atheists" to me is nonsensical, just as "All amoebas are atheists" is; a slogan rather than a useful description of reality.

Quote from: Bluenose on August 12, 2018, 12:38:01 PMIt is no more than a lack of belief, end of story.  To be an atheist does not require a rejection of the god principle, just because most of us started out being indoctrinated into one religion or another (Roman Catholicism in my case).  Babies (at least newborn ones), cockroaches and amoebas all are incapable of belief in gods, so they are therefore atheist.  I haver a colleague who was never introduced to the idea of a god or gods, other than an idea that is is an antiquated belief (think Zeus, etc).  On several occasions I have had to explain one or another of the xtian belief so that he couols understand something in the context of some discussion or other, because he was not brought up in that tradition.  When he eventually was introduced to the concept of a god he THEN rejected the idea as arrant nonsense, but he was an atheist before that point, not just after.

I agree that before you explained Christian doctrines to your colleague, he was atheist. He was aware of the concept of gods, and did not believe in them. Your explanations only made him a more informed atheist.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on August 12, 2018, 09:19:34 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 11, 2018, 04:00:32 PM
Quote from: Dave on August 11, 2018, 11:56:24 AM
Quote from: Tank on August 11, 2018, 09:18:08 AM
Quote from: Dave on August 11, 2018, 08:49:14 AM
Quote from: Tank on August 11, 2018, 08:30:43 AM
I am of the opinion that we are born as a 'clean sheet' neither theist or atheist. To be an atheist one has to be aware of the concept of theism and then to reject it.

I am going to challenge that, Tank.   :grin:

Does one need to have knowledge of something and then conciously reject it to be "without" it? Is not the person that has no knowledge of even the concept of god not also "without god"? Does the newborn baby have any such concept?

This is the old trouble with the label, it inherently assumes the possible existence of a god to be able to reject it. "Realist" might be better label, a newborn is hardly that!

But babies are not born theistic either.

Yes, true!

I can see where I found dispute but cannot seem to express it clearly - that problem revolves (for ne) with the very word "atheist".  I will meditate on it whilst I have lunch. No guarantee of resolution is implied!

We are suffering from the inadequacy of language. Wittgenstein would be proud.

Yes. :lol:

Reminds me of 'amoral' and 'immoral'. If morality is a human construct then nature, for instance, is amoral, whereas someone who lies and steals is immoral. Can such a distinction be made with the concept of atheism?

If only humans are capable of comprehending the notion of gods then there really is no point in bringing cockroaches, amoebas or any other nonhuman animal into the discussion, IMO. They wouldn't technically be atheists if such a word only describes humans. Maybe another word is needed for such critters.  :notsure: 

Or a broad definition of 'atheism'... but I tend to agree with Recusant above, it would lose specificity and usefulness in meaning. A tree is atheist, rocks are atheist, the Pacific is atheist...it just becomes weird.

An infant is incapable of comprehending that there exists the concept of gods or deciding for itself whether it believes in such a concept or not, much like a cockroach or an amoeba. Whether one considers it an atheist or not hinges on the definition one gives atheism, and IMO a definition that can result in such wide interpretations just gives it less meaning, not more.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Icarus on August 14, 2018, 01:08:09 AM
Cockroaches.............I can not imagine them in a baptist congregation but they could  possibly be taking their liberties in the church kitchen. :snicker: 
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Bad Penny II on August 14, 2018, 01:38:54 PM
There's been too much besmirching of cockroaches.

Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Dave on August 14, 2018, 02:14:41 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on August 14, 2018, 01:38:54 PM
There's been too much besmirching of cockroaches.



Don Marquis is an equal of Lear IMHO.

LOVE Archy and Mehitabel.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: joeactor on August 14, 2018, 03:40:34 PM
From my days as a coder, I find it fascinating that most humans split the world into True/False without regard for the "Null" state...

if "True" = "there is a god"
if "False" = "there is no god"
if "Null" = "agnostic"

We are born agnostic, ie. without knowledge, and possibly without beliefs.

Atheism and Theism both require knowledge and choice, where as agnostic requires nothing.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Tank on August 14, 2018, 03:54:04 PM
Quote from: joeactor on August 14, 2018, 03:40:34 PM
From my days as a coder, I find it fascinating that most humans split the world into True/False without regard for the "Null" state...

if "True" = "there is a god"
if "False" = "there is no god"
if "Null" = "agnostic"

We are born agnostic, ie. without knowledge, and possibly without beliefs.

Atheism and Theism both require knowledge and choice, where as agnostic requires nothing.

To be an agnostic is still to make a choice that you can not make a choice :)
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: joeactor on August 14, 2018, 04:13:49 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 14, 2018, 03:54:04 PM
Quote from: joeactor on August 14, 2018, 03:40:34 PM
From my days as a coder, I find it fascinating that most humans split the world into True/False without regard for the "Null" state...

if "True" = "there is a god"
if "False" = "there is no god"
if "Null" = "agnostic"

We are born agnostic, ie. without knowledge, and possibly without beliefs.

Atheism and Theism both require knowledge and choice, where as agnostic requires nothing.

To be an agnostic is still to make a choice that you can not make a choice :)

To label yourself agnostic requires a choice, however, the state of being agnostic is the default when no knowledge exists.

Let's say that everything in the world was apples. And god is a green apple.

Before you knew that apples existed, you had no opinion on if green apples existed. You were agnostic without being aware of any choices. After you encountered red apples, you were told about green apples (god/s)

So, we're all born agnostic of green apples, label or not, because none of us has any knowledge of them.

Those who label themselves Atheists choose that there are no green apples since they've never seen one. Those who label themselves Theists choose that there are green apples (also having not seen them). And those who label themselves Agnostic choose that they don't know if green apples exist or not...

But before the knowledge of apples (red, green or other), and before we label ourselves, we're all by default agnostic of green apples (ie. god/s)
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Dave on August 14, 2018, 04:56:20 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 14, 2018, 03:54:04 PM
Quote from: joeactor on August 14, 2018, 03:40:34 PM
From my days as a coder, I find it fascinating that most humans split the world into True/False without regard for the "Null" state...

if "True" = "there is a god"
if "False" = "there is no god"
if "Null" = "agnostic"

We are born agnostic, ie. without knowledge, and possibly without beliefs.

Atheism and Theism both require knowledge and choice, where as agnostic requires nothing.

To be an agnostic is still to make a choice that you can not make a choice :)

That's another  case of the use of a word giving it a specific definition.

"Atheist" is disputed because it originates from "theos" which ties it hard to "god".  With "agnostic" "gnostic" relates to "knowledge", just because someone sort of added a reference to "god", so it equals, "one to whom nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God". This apparently does not mean they deny "god" or are ignorant of "god's" existence, just know nothing about such an entity or its existence.

So I am with Tank, an agnostic, as used, is something decided and that requires knowledge of the concept of "god".

By extension "recognise" could come to mean, "return to accepting the understood nature of god."
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on August 17, 2018, 03:05:18 AM
Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Dave on August 17, 2018, 05:09:23 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on August 17, 2018, 03:05:18 AM
Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?
One might also ask why some theists think we are born immediately subject to their god's will. Maybe so subject even before birth.

To them it is a matter of faith and belief. To the atheist it is, perhaps, more philosophical (yet pragmatic) but still a matter of contention. Perhaps it it a case of "practising the argument" (just in case it is challenged) and reaffirming the atheist "belief" - after all, many theists reaffirm and celebrate their faith and belief constantly with prayer, hymns, sermons, even sacrifices in some cases.

Why should atheists be different? We are still humans who, mostly, have need for reassurance and a sense of being part of a "society."
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Tank on August 17, 2018, 06:32:37 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on August 17, 2018, 03:05:18 AM
Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?

Well according to Islam you were born a Muslim.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Sandra Craft on August 17, 2018, 07:57:41 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on August 17, 2018, 03:05:18 AM
Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?

I think it might be a reaction to being told so often that everyone is born with a knowledge of god, and therefore there is no atheism and anyone who thinks they're an atheist is either lying or deluded.  A statement like that really begs a comeback.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Icarus on August 18, 2018, 01:07:37 AM
^ A comeback is my first thought too Sandy. On second thought, there is no use refuting the claims of deluded people who actually believe that non believers are deluded. 
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Dave on August 18, 2018, 08:01:12 AM
Quote from: Icarus on August 18, 2018, 01:07:37 AM
^ A comeback is my first thought too Sandy. On second thought, there is no use refuting the claims of deluded people who actually believe that non believers are deluded.

That is my tendency, if they are "quiet" theists and do not raise the matter I leave them in peace in their ignorance.

But I still feel concerned about the effect on any kids they have.

Evangelists and prosetylisers, however, deserve all the "negative feedback" they get!
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Tank on August 18, 2018, 09:28:20 AM
Quote from: Tank on August 17, 2018, 06:32:37 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on August 17, 2018, 03:05:18 AM
Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?

Well according to Islam you were born a Muslim.

It's the arrogant presumption of theism that needs to be countered.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on August 18, 2018, 07:14:10 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 17, 2018, 06:32:37 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on August 17, 2018, 03:05:18 AM
Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?

Well according to Islam you were born a Muslim.

I will never be able to convince them otherwise, so I won't concern myself with their thoughts.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: No one on August 18, 2018, 08:41:20 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2) Tank:
It's the arrogant presumption of theism that needs to be countered.

What's so arrogant about being the mostest specially specialists species in all of the everythings, hmmm, Tank?
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: joeactor on August 19, 2018, 02:08:35 AM
Quote from: No one on August 18, 2018, 08:41:20 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2) Tank:
It's the arrogant presumption of theism that needs to be countered.

What's so arrogant about being the mostest specially specialists species in all of the everythings, hmmm, Tank?

... there is a bit of irony in the thread title for this statement ;-)
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Sandra Craft on August 19, 2018, 06:07:54 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on August 18, 2018, 07:14:10 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 17, 2018, 06:32:37 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on August 17, 2018, 03:05:18 AM
Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?

Well according to Islam you were born a Muslim.

I will never be able to convince them otherwise, so I won't concern myself with their thoughts.

You might feel differently if you lived in a Muslim majority country and your everyday life could be affected by what Muslims think of you.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: Tank on August 19, 2018, 08:12:32 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on August 18, 2018, 07:14:10 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 17, 2018, 06:32:37 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on August 17, 2018, 03:05:18 AM
Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?

Well according to Islam you were born a Muslim.

I will never be able to convince them otherwise, so I won't concern myself with their thoughts.

Well they care what you think. And would tax you or some would kill you if they could.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on August 19, 2018, 02:10:16 PM
Quote from: Sandra Craft on August 19, 2018, 06:07:54 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on August 18, 2018, 07:14:10 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 17, 2018, 06:32:37 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on August 17, 2018, 03:05:18 AM
Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?

Well according to Islam you were born a Muslim.

I will never be able to convince them otherwise, so I won't concern myself with their thoughts.

You might feel differently if you lived in a Muslim majority country and your everyday life could be affected by what Muslims think of you.

Quote from: Tank on August 19, 2018, 08:12:32 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on August 18, 2018, 07:14:10 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 17, 2018, 06:32:37 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on August 17, 2018, 03:05:18 AM
Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?

Well according to Islam you were born a Muslim.

I will never be able to convince them otherwise, so I won't concern myself with their thoughts.

Well they care what you think. And would tax you or some would kill you if they could.

Yes. Some factions are not exactly into 'live and let live' these days...
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: SidewalkCynic on January 25, 2019, 02:05:45 PM
This is a recurring discussion that atheists have been debating for, at least, the fifteen years that I have been monitoring and participating in atheist forums - I have been dedicated to search for the resolve of these issues, because the unresolved issues form the dogma that maintains the stall that atheists perceive of society.
Quote from: Dave on August 11, 2018, 08:49:14 AM
Quote from: Tank on August 11, 2018, 08:30:43 AM
I am of the opinion that we are born as a 'clean sheet' neither theist or atheist. To be an atheist one has to be aware of the concept of theism and then to reject it.
Does one need to have knowledge of something and then conciously reject it to be "without" it? Is not the person that has no knowledge of even the concept of god not also "without god"? Does the newborn baby have any such concept?

This is the old trouble with the label, it inherently assumes the possible existence of a god to be able to reject it. "Realist" might be better label, a newborn is hardly that!
Tabula Rasa - blank slate was described centuries ago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_rasa. I am very confident that, "secular," is the correct word for classifying persons without any indoctrination, or bias - and I will argue that it is impossible to be without indoctrination or bias upon reaching consciousness (of competing doctrines).

The child is born secular until indoctrinated by the teachings of the guardian community - culture.
Title: Re: Are we born atheists?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 25, 2019, 05:41:04 PM
Quote from: SidewalkCynic on January 25, 2019, 02:05:45 PM
Tabula Rasa - blank slate was described centuries ago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_rasa.

An old idea that should just die already. :popcorn: