Happy Atheist Forum

General => Current Events => Topic started by: Dave on March 30, 2018, 11:45:59 AM

Poll
Question: Who do you trust in this matter?
Option 1: The government votes: 0
Option 2: The Internet companies votes: 0
Option 3: Neither votes: 11
Option 4: Both votes: 0
Option 5: No opinion votes: 0
Title: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Dave on March 30, 2018, 11:45:59 AM
There is a great deal in the news at the monent about Cambridge Analytica, their methods of data gathering and who uses their services for what purposes. America's election and the Brexit referendum are both quoted as being affected by data gathering and manipulation. Butvtherecare accusations of even more political and commercial data collection and manipulation in developing nations.

On another forum, that I no longer visit, some members were vociferous against "Big Brother" government agencies collecting data, especially health data, about them in a central database that other government agencies and departments could access. Yet were equally vociferous against any restrictions on the Internet and web.

Though I view any "powerbase", governmental or private, critically and with scepticism wherevthere is a smidgeon of trust it is for the governmental rather than purely commercial, profit based (but tax shy), organisation. I am happy for my medical data to be added to the database because there is a very good chance that it will help reduce drug use and improve health and quality of life. I would hapilly donate genetic material for correlation purposes to that end.

There is, rightly, a lot of shouting about the NRA's effects on a narrow issue situation in America, yet the biggest, and richest, lobbyist is said to be Google.

Google, as we know, is the prime search engine of choice, by a long way. Google's share of Internet access is also growing, especially in vulnerable 2nd and 3rd world countries, via airborne or orbital assets.

There are many metrics for the world's largest companies but looking through a few the following seems to give an indication of the shift in "power", categorised in terms of area of activity, over the kast 10 years.

Despite Facebook's losses in value (and "face"?) due to the latest personal security matter there seems to be balanced opinions as to whetger thiis will do tgem, and Internet companies in general, lasting harm in terms of reduced influence and trust. The energy companies may possibly be losing investment popularity because of environmental concerns, public opinion can be a big factor for some investment funds relying on income from the public.

Google knows where I eat out, where I shop, to some degree what I buy. Do you think there should be even more regulation on what data can be collected and held and how that data is used?

Who do you trust? The government? The Internet companies? Both? Neither? Don't care?

14 day poll.
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: No one on March 30, 2018, 12:52:50 PM
Who do you trust when everyone's a crook?
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Dave on March 30, 2018, 12:55:23 PM
Quote from: No one on March 30, 2018, 12:52:50 PM
Who do you trust when everyone's a crook?

Look for the least bent crooks. Then you may not get hooked into as many sticky patches.
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Davin on March 30, 2018, 02:49:23 PM
Neither. What we need, at least here in the US, is an amendment that protects our privacy to some degree.
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Dave on March 30, 2018, 02:57:35 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 30, 2018, 02:49:23 PM
Neither. What we need, at least here in the US, is an amendment that protects our privacy to some degree.

I was wondering about this and your Constitution. Never read all the ammendments but is there not something about the government not being able to sequester property without compensation. Is your data, your life habits, not your property? No doubt conflicting legal definitions of "property" equal the numbers of actors wishing to grab it.

And, yes, I changed my vote.  Though it is not easy to avoid either of the bogeymen, and thus felt constrained to chose, I later decided it is OK to be paranoid in this resoect!
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Davin on March 30, 2018, 03:03:27 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 30, 2018, 02:57:35 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 30, 2018, 02:49:23 PM
Neither. What we need, at least here in the US, is an amendment that protects our privacy to some degree.

I was wondering about this and your Constitution. Never read all the ammendments but is there not something about the government not being able to sequester property without compensation. Is your data, your life habits, not your property? No doubt conflicting legal definitions of "property" equal the numbers of actors wishing to grab it.

And, yes, I changed my vote.  Though it is not easy to avoid either of the bogeymen, and thus felt constrained to chose, I later decided it is OK to be paranoid in this resoect!
We have the 4th amendment that protects against unreasonable searches and seizures, that doesn't help to fix the issue though. One problem, is that congress keeps giving agencies bypasses to that and while many companies put up a fight for at least a while, there are now very few that will fight an order from a government agency for customer data. It started (well, it got worse by a few magnitudes), with 9/11 and the PATRIOT act. It's still unconstitutional, but how does one prove that the government took their data unreasonably? Especially when there is no oversight.

The other problem, is that people "agree" with the end user agreements that "authorize" the companies to use personal data in many ways up to and including selling it.

I don't want personal data to always be protected no matter what, I'm fine with the warranting process that had been working very well for a long time.
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Arturo on March 30, 2018, 04:24:30 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 30, 2018, 03:03:27 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 30, 2018, 02:57:35 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 30, 2018, 02:49:23 PM
Neither. What we need, at least here in the US, is an amendment that protects our privacy to some degree.

I was wondering about this and your Constitution. Never read all the ammendments but is there not something about the government not being able to sequester property without compensation. Is your data, your life habits, not your property? No doubt conflicting legal definitions of "property" equal the numbers of actors wishing to grab it.

And, yes, I changed my vote.  Though it is not easy to avoid either of the bogeymen, and thus felt constrained to chose, I later decided it is OK to be paranoid in this resoect!
We have the 4th amendment that protects against unreasonable searches and seizures, that doesn't help to fix the issue though. One problem, is that congress keeps giving agencies bypasses to that and while many companies put up a fight for at least a while, there are now very few that will fight an order from a government agency for customer data. It started (well, it got worse by a few magnitudes), with 9/11 and the PATRIOT act. It's still unconstitutional, but how does one prove that the government took their data unreasonably? Especially when there is no oversight.

The other problem, is that people "agree" with the end user agreements that "authorize" the companies to use personal data in many ways up to and including selling it.

I don't want personal data to always be protected no matter what, I'm fine with the warranting process that had been working very well for a long time.

The user agreements are always very ridiculous. Every time someone wants to sign up for a website, they have to read a novel of terms and agreements. And they are always subject to change.

But I voted neither. Personal information is protected when you go see a doctor, or a specialist of any kind. It's protected under a lot of other agencies you visit in the living world. But when it comes to online activity, that is somehow free game for whoever has the cash.
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Davin on March 30, 2018, 06:11:32 PM
Quote from: Arturo on March 30, 2018, 04:24:30 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 30, 2018, 03:03:27 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 30, 2018, 02:57:35 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 30, 2018, 02:49:23 PM
Neither. What we need, at least here in the US, is an amendment that protects our privacy to some degree.

I was wondering about this and your Constitution. Never read all the ammendments but is there not something about the government not being able to sequester property without compensation. Is your data, your life habits, not your property? No doubt conflicting legal definitions of "property" equal the numbers of actors wishing to grab it.

And, yes, I changed my vote.  Though it is not easy to avoid either of the bogeymen, and thus felt constrained to chose, I later decided it is OK to be paranoid in this resoect!
We have the 4th amendment that protects against unreasonable searches and seizures, that doesn't help to fix the issue though. One problem, is that congress keeps giving agencies bypasses to that and while many companies put up a fight for at least a while, there are now very few that will fight an order from a government agency for customer data. It started (well, it got worse by a few magnitudes), with 9/11 and the PATRIOT act. It's still unconstitutional, but how does one prove that the government took their data unreasonably? Especially when there is no oversight.

The other problem, is that people "agree" with the end user agreements that "authorize" the companies to use personal data in many ways up to and including selling it.

I don't want personal data to always be protected no matter what, I'm fine with the warranting process that had been working very well for a long time.

The user agreements are always very ridiculous. Every time someone wants to sign up for a website, they have to read a novel of terms and agreements. And they are always subject to change.

But I voted neither. Personal information is protected when you go see a doctor, or a specialist of any kind. It's protected under a lot of other agencies you visit in the living world. But when it comes to online activity, that is somehow free game for whoever has the cash.
Something has to be done about those user agreements too.
(https://i.imgur.com/Ns7St4t.gif)

Along with big corporations lobbying and pushing for them to be able to make money off of our user data, there are a lot of people who think that if one puts data out onto the internet, they shouldn't be upset that other people can access it. While that was an alright way to think back in my day, when the internet was young, that kind of thinking doesn't fit with the modern internet. Where going out on to the internet was something that one did back in the day, now we are always on the internet. We need to get the majority of people on board with privacy protection, or wait until the kids who know better start voting. By then though, there is going to be a huge mess to untangle.
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Arturo on March 30, 2018, 09:58:06 PM
QuoteBy then though, there is going to be a huge mess to untangle.

That always seems to be the case somehow.
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Davin on March 30, 2018, 10:10:35 PM
Quote from: Arturo on March 30, 2018, 09:58:06 PM
QuoteBy then though, there is going to be a huge mess to untangle.

That always seems to be the case somehow.
Well, there will always be a mess to clean up, but the last time it was this messy in the US was around the 1920's-1930's.
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Dave on March 30, 2018, 10:21:13 PM
There is a new law starting in Europe in May, the General Data Protection Regulation, that - it is hoped - will reduce and simplify the usage agreements and limit how personal data is handled. But, as ever, it has its problems:
QuoteEU data protection law may end up protecting scammers, experts warn.
Sweeping new European data protection regulations may have the accidental effect of protecting scammers and spammers by killing the WHOIS system used to link misdeeds online to real identities offline, security experts have warned.

The General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR), which comes into effect in May, contains a raft of measures intended to strengthen data protection for Europeans.But some of the new rights and responsibilities will conflict with decades-old technologies that have provided much-needed transparency on the internet, says Raj Samani, the chief scientist at cybersecurity firm McAfee.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/feb/06/gdpr-data-protection-law-scammers-whois-tools-internet-european-privacy
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Icarus on March 31, 2018, 12:30:26 AM
Those who are mining data are indulging in an offshoot of the advertising business. Google, Amazon, Wal Mart, AIG, and any of the corporate units that can afford it, are trying to figure out what we will buy.

I agree with Dave in that I do not care if someone knows my health status or what medicines I might buy. Our HIPPA rules are claimed to protect us from the prying eyes of the medical insurance industry.  The premise is that if the insurer knows that I have a potentially serious condition they will charge me more for my insurance.  I cannot help but notice that they charge me plenty even though I have no physical problems whatever except for the ordinary stuff like short term gastric disturbances or other simple malady that I take care of without needing to consult a physician. 

I would like not to have my preferences of political parties, religious choices, or my sex life  catalogued.  Never mind, it probably is on record somewhere or several somewheres. What the hell, Amazon already knows what kind of books I am most likely to buy. E-Bay already knows what I am likely to shop for.  My grocery store may know what kind and what quantities I am likely to buy.

Every one uses a credit card rather than cash these days. My large grocery chain can see that my credit card can be matched to the check out receipt which may list that I have bought expensive Spanish Chorizo sausage instead of the less expensive Mexican variety.

Relax folks. The digital age has made it impossible for us to maintain any meaningful degree of privacy.

Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Dave on March 31, 2018, 04:17:07 AM
I know of one person who, though she has an ancient dumb cellphone, eschews all digital devices and uses cash. OK, she has a debit card that informs someone she probably shops at Tesco because she uses the ATM there to get the cash.

Not paranoia, she 's just making a point she feels strongly about.

What I want to know is, if they are so smart, why I am encouraged to buy a, say, pressure cooker immediately after buying a pressure cooker!? When Tesco did money off coupons they would send eight for products I commonly bought and two "'hooks" for carefully selected other stuff that others with similar buying patterns also bought. Amazon are quite blatant with this ploy but I am very, very rarely attracted enough to follow up. Luvkily I seem to be "ad-blind".
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Madbunny on March 31, 2018, 07:42:44 AM
The ability to collect data has always existed.  Companies, and the government have in my opinion always held a similar ability to do so.

Up until relatively recently, say the last 20 years or so the problem wasn't the collection, but the data visualization and the mining of that data for useful information.
YOU can download some of this yourself if you want to see what I'm talking about.

https://www.facebook.com/settings  (click on 'download a copy of your facebook data')
https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/3024190?hl=en  (click on download your data)

Its all there, but what you're missing is the ability to compile it in a way that lets you make sense of it, or make predictive guesses based on that data.
There are now people, programs and AI sorting utilities that can make those educated predictive guesses, a profile of YOU and what your habits are.  There is a phrase; 'past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior'

Companies use it to predict how to push stuff into your field of view that they can sell you, governments use it to generate behavioral red flags or track aberrant individuals.
I suspect that there is no putting this genie back in the bottle. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-police-facial-recognition-technology-ai-jaywalkers-fines-text-wechat-weibo-cctv-a8279531.html
We know that it can be done, and as a rule people are more than happy to give up personal liberty for the sake of both the illusion of safety and convenience.




Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Bad Penny II on March 31, 2018, 01:31:15 PM
Quote from: No one on March 30, 2018, 12:52:50 PM
Who do you trust when everyone's a crook?

No one, by that I don't mean you.
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Bad Penny II on March 31, 2018, 01:33:28 PM
Quote from: Madbunny on March 31, 2018, 07:42:44 AM
The ability to collect data has always existed.  Companies, and the government have in my opinion always held a similar ability to do so.

How do you define always?
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Madbunny on March 31, 2018, 03:05:37 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on March 31, 2018, 01:33:28 PM
How do you define always?

Pretty self explanatory; always.  As long as you, a consumer or citizen are reliant on an outside agency to give you something, whether its a product, or citizenship that outside agency has the ability to collect information on you.  The effort it takes to really and truly mask your presence is increasingly more difficult which means that most people won't bother.  (see links I posted re: downloading your own data)

It can be as simple as purchasing history, or a record of birth.  The more that you do, or interact, the more opportunities for data collection exist.
Eventually patterns emerge.
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on March 31, 2018, 08:00:52 PM
Even in the pre-internet age data collection was a thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book)

Maybe this practice goes as far as recorded history?
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Dave on March 31, 2018, 08:16:29 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on March 31, 2018, 08:00:52 PM
Even in the pre-internet age data collection was a thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book)

Maybe this practice goes as far as recorded history?

I was thinking that myself, there have always been spies and informers watching others and reporting on their, assets, actions and behaviour. It is now just a matter of scale and availability mixed with the desire to monetise and make profit on the data. Plus the ability to expose and publicise those actions, the number of bloggers and (often self described) experts looking to make a reputation by digging up and exposing what the big boys are up to.

Intelligence analysts, police and reporters have done the same for a very long time.
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: hermes2015 on April 01, 2018, 05:36:38 AM
Does anyone here use a VPN (Virtual Private Network)? If so, which one? Are they worth the monthly fee?

If have heard that NordVPN is one of the best.
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 01, 2018, 11:35:29 AM
Quote from: hermes2015 on April 01, 2018, 05:36:38 AM
Does anyone here use a VPN (Virtual Private Network)? If so, which one? Are they worth the monthly fee?

If have heard that NordVPN is one of the best.

I sometimes use free VPN to access content that has been blocked in my country, mostly Youtube vids. Also, Once I logged into HAF and was automatically banned (it seems a lot of spammer accounts use VPN).
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Asmodean on April 01, 2018, 02:23:31 PM
We have a law coming into power (from the Union™, I think) called... Something germanically-communist-sounding.





...It's the abovementioned GDPR, actually. I'm sort of wirking towards that in a couple of ways. Long story short, it will place certain restrictions and obligations on domestic and foreign companies with regard to user data aggregation and use. For example, it outlines the requirement for consent for data aggregation and I believe some sort of data use related information availability guarantee (Informed consent)

It's a long and complicated story, and this law targets corporate data aggregation, not that executed by government agencies and personally, although I see some potential problems for the non-compliant businesses, I have my doubts as to this thing's effectiveness. As long as "informed consent" can be obtained by checking a box and clicking "submit," well... The public in general is just not that responsible. Who has the time to read them damned contracts after all?

Personally, I think data aggregation for the purpose of targeted advertising, for example, is good and well, as long as the aggregator uses it inhouse (for example by distributing ads from an ad ageny to their own subscriber and user base) Also, I have very little problem with governments keeping tabs on me, as long as they do not hamper my ability to express my opinions freely (I ought to do a massive Count Dankula rant here, I think. Didn't see one after a quick scan of new threads. For those who don't know what I'm on about, Bing yourself "nazi pug" and you will find the whole stupid controversy. It hits somewhat close to home, as we have quite recently lost a minister over some bullshit Facebook drama and some salty Communist fuck.)

Where was I? Ah, yes. I have no problem with data aggregation, provided that the aggregator offers an adequate level of security. Yes, there will always be leaks, and yes, the first commandment of the Interwebs stands stronger than ever (That being something along the lines of "If you don't want the whole world to learn something about you, don't put it on the Internet," the second commandment being "The Internet is only a dick if you are one") and overall, I think this is more a question of personal responsibility than legislation.

If you'll indulge my ramblings, I'd like to lift my gaze a generation. I've gotten so old over the years (*sigh*) that some friends my age have kids who are themselves teenagers now, and to the "better-off" among them, the Internet is almost like... Another body part. An integral part of "self," even. I am sort-of that way myself, but that is mostly due to my interests, career choices and battle arenas, so to speak. This puts me in the position of being able to say with some certainty that, even though the Internet never forgets, nor does it easily forgive, those particular kids will be just fine. They learn their lessons by skinning their digital knees, just like my generation learned ours by skinning our physical ones. Another thing those specific kids I'm talking about have in common, is parents who know enough to pull them back on the side walk as they attempt to run across the street right in front of a speeding LGV, metaphorically speaking. Thus, it's not they who eventually find themselves balls-deep in some sex drama or get their identities stolen or end up in court over some unintended consequences of actions they were not even aware of having taken. Speaking from a limited sample of my personal experience, those who do end up in such situations, are those who consider their digital life to be purely fun and games, or just don't give it much thought at all.

That right there, I think, is where much of the problem lies; that eternal thin line between overprotectiveness and recklessness, between scaremongering and negligence... That will not be adequately addressed by any legislation I can think of. What will certainly help though, is better education - not necessarilly for the youths specifically, but for my own generation and the pre-millenials. In the ever-changing tides of the Internet, we have to learn our lessons from skinning our virtual knees too, and be responsible enough not to jump into traffic without being armored with some knowledge of its dynamics, not to mention a nice multi-layered proxy.

What does it have to do with data collection? This; if you assume that the Internet never forgets, and further assume that, much like the Biblical God, it sees everything you do from the second you pick up a networked phone or sit down in front of your PC (Dick pix in particular. Much like the Biblical God, the Internet does like the bedroom stuff), then... That is your world. That is how it is and how it works. You may want to change it somehow, and even work towards those changes, but ignoring them does no more make them go away than ignoring my metaphorical LGV makes its impact less solid.

Now, to post it, read it and see if I have made a single coherent statement...  ;D

Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Dave on April 01, 2018, 02:53:28 PM
Regarding advert targetting: I once set up a website after being attacked by a dog and finding advice etc hard to access. It was not anti-dog but very anti irresponsible dog owners. It also had a "road map" on how to navigate our small claims court system.

I signed up to Google ads which, of course, looked for keyword clues on the site. Every ad was dog related: food, toys, clothes, vets etc. Though mentioned several times on the site it managed to miss insurance and legal cover entirely. Or no-one was wanting to advertise those services to the doggy world I suppose.

Still, better than the postal "targetted advertising" (self-described) of pre-Internet days. I got a whole bundle of returnable post cards for garden tools, furniture and services, conservatories, double glazing, builders, electrical work and similar. I was living in a rented bedsitter at the tine . . . On the third lot I printed labels at work (on a Roneo, we only had line printers then) expkaining my circumstances, suggested they contact my lanlord  stuck them on and sent them off to the advertisers. Didn't get anymore.
Title: Re: Internet and government: data holding and use.
Post by: Asmodean on April 01, 2018, 03:06:02 PM
Ah, yes... The Good Old days.

Actually, the targeted advertising of today is somewhat different. Yes, banner ad providers will read your site's metadata, if not more, in order to provide what they see as most relevant ad content. However, today, they also use cookies and other data (Like your browsing patterns, for instance; where you've been, what you've up/downvoted, the last things you viewed or purchased, your comments, your current location and travel pattern and more) to deliver ads and content tailored specifically to you as a user.

There is nothing particularly sinister about it, as long as you know what they can know and how they can obtain that knowledge, thus putting you in position to do something about it.