Author Topic: Just a minute, hold it, Stop, back up.  (Read 246 times)

Old Seer

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Just a minute, hold it, Stop, back up.
« on: April 15, 2018, 02:35:02 PM »
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/04/are-we-earths-only-civilization/557180/

Above article shows "progressive insanity syndrome".

The article is about ---were there civilizations before there were humans. I'm of the understanding that it takes humans to create a civilization. It depends upon what one understands what human means.
There's different applications. One is-- intelligence is what makes one human. If that's correct (I disagree) wouldn't a population have to be intelligent to participate in a civilization.
Intelligence is a neutral and in itself cannot be human. Intelligence is a compulatory process that can be applied to anything. Human- is a specific mental presence and intelligence is the process as to reason whether something is or isn't.

In either case, no one needs to be human to belong to a society. Lion's belong to a society as do cattle, because each forms a social grouping by their nature, but they don't reside in a civilization. Civilization is a grouping devised and regulated by reason. So, was there a civilization before there were humans---you decide. (Gleep)
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.

Dave

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Re: Just a minute, hold it, Stop, back up.
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2018, 04:22:20 PM »
Terry Pratchett would have loved that theory!
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Bluenose

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Re: Just a minute, hold it, Stop, back up.
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2018, 11:37:13 AM »
The book "Toolmaker Kpan" by John McLauchlan explores the idea of a dinosaur civilisation that faced with annihilation by at their own hands, built an ark which was sent off into deep space and returns to near earth in the not too distant future after an atomic war.  The civilisation made heavy use of Iridium - explaining the Iridium anomaly at the K-T boundary.  The Koan in the title is a question about whether toolmakers are doomed to self destruct when they reach a certain level.  A very interesting read as I recall, but it's been quite a few years since I read it.
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Old Seer

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Re: Just a minute, hold it, Stop, back up.
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2018, 03:10:53 PM »
The book "Toolmaker Kpan" by John McLauchlan explores the idea of a dinosaur civilisation that faced with annihilation by at their own hands, built an ark which was sent off into deep space and returns to near earth in the not too distant future after an atomic war.  The civilisation made heavy use of Iridium - explaining the Iridium anomaly at the K-T boundary.  The Koan in the title is a question about whether toolmakers are doomed to self destruct when they reach a certain level.  A very interesting read as I recall, but it's been quite a few years since I read it.
Does he present this as fact or science fiction. I say he's right that civilizations end by their own fallacies but I can't see that at any time in the past dinosaurs were in intelligent to a level of forming a civilization.
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.

Bluenose

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Re: Just a minute, hold it, Stop, back up.
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2018, 03:52:26 PM »
The book "Toolmaker Kpan" by John McLauchlan explores the idea of a dinosaur civilisation that faced with annihilation by at their own hands, built an ark which was sent off into deep space and returns to near earth in the not too distant future after an atomic war.  The civilisation made heavy use of Iridium - explaining the Iridium anomaly at the K-T boundary.  The Koan in the title is a question about whether toolmakers are doomed to self destruct when they reach a certain level.  A very interesting read as I recall, but it's been quite a few years since I read it.
Does he present this as fact or science fiction. I say he's right that civilizations end by their own fallacies but I can't see that at any time in the past dinosaurs were in intelligent to a level of forming a civilization.

Oh, sorry, I did not make that clear.  The book is science fiction. However, arguing from analogy, the fossil record of humans is relatively poor and we only need to look back about 2 million years or so from the present.  Although I do not actually think it likely, if we were to consider that time period (say, 2 million years) to be sufficient to lead to the rise of intelligent humans (if we actually consider ourselves to be intelligent...) then I suppose it is possible that intelligent dinosaurs might have arisen in the 2 million years before the K-T event.  Just how much of that evidence would be still be around is a moot point. Almost certainly no artefacts like technology or buildings etc.  Also, once humans became tool makers they started to indulge in funeral rites.  In many human societies precious little of the dead person is left after all the ritual etc and not much of that would be left and hence be findable as fossil 60 million years later.  It is not hard to imagine that a non-human species might have funeral rites that eliminate the great majority of potential fossils.  Also, intriguingly there remains the Iridium anomaly - is that an artefact of a non-human technology?  Maybe, but its only speculation at this point and I suspect likely to remain so.
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Vroomfondel (courtesy of Douglas Adams)

"If you understand quantum physics, then you don't really understand quantum physics." - Bluenose

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Old Seer

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Re: Just a minute, hold it, Stop, back up.
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2018, 06:04:07 PM »
The book "Toolmaker Kpan" by John McLauchlan explores the idea of a dinosaur civilisation that faced with annihilation by at their own hands, built an ark which was sent off into deep space and returns to near earth in the not too distant future after an atomic war.  The civilisation made heavy use of Iridium - explaining the Iridium anomaly at the K-T boundary.  The Koan in the title is a question about whether toolmakers are doomed to self destruct when they reach a certain level.  A very interesting read as I recall, but it's been quite a few years since I read it.
Does he present this as fact or science fiction. I say he's right that civilizations end by their own fallacies but I can't see that at any time in the past dinosaurs were in intelligent to a level of forming a civilization.

Oh, sorry, I did not make that clear.  The book is science fiction. However, arguing from analogy, the fossil record of humans is relatively poor and we only need to look back about 2 million years or so from the present.  Although I do not actually think it likely, if we were to consider that time period (say, 2 million years) to be sufficient to lead to the rise of intelligent humans (if we actually consider ourselves to be intelligent...) then I suppose it is possible that intelligent dinosaurs might have arisen in the 2 million years before the K-T event.  Just how much of that evidence would be still be around is a moot point. Almost certainly no artefacts like technology or buildings etc.  Also, once humans became tool makers they started to indulge in funeral rites.  In many human societies precious little of the dead person is left after all the ritual etc and not much of that would be left and hence be findable as fossil 60 million years later.  It is not hard to imagine that a non-human species might have funeral rites that eliminate the great majority of potential fossils.  Also, intriguingly there remains the Iridium anomaly - is that an artefact of a non-human technology?  Maybe, but its only speculation at this point and I suspect likely to remain so.
Excellent, Thank you. What you're getting at in one case is emotion. Emotion is a very powerful motivator.
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.