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General => Current Events => Topic started by: Recusant on February 18, 2018, 01:33:10 AM

Title: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Recusant on February 18, 2018, 01:33:10 AM
I did a search, and I guess we never had a thread here about James Damore (https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/kzbm4a/employees-anti-diversity-manifesto-goes-internally-viral-at-google), the Google employee that felt Google was doing too much to encourage women and minorities to work there, and wrote an internal memo (https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/evzjww/here-are-the-citations-for-the-anti-diversity-manifesto-circulating-at-google) about it. Google fired him, and he filed a complaint with the NLRB. He became a cause celebre for the alt-right and fellow travellers. Damore later dropped the complaint, choosing to file a class action lawsuit instead. However, the NLRB has gone ahead and ruled on the complaint.

"James Damore's labor complaint went over about as well as his trash diversity manifesto" | The Register (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/17/google_james_damore_labor_complaint/)

QuoteGoogle was well within its rights when it dumped controversial bro-grammer James Damore in mid-2017.

This is according to legal advice given to America's National Labor Relations Board by its associate general counsel Jayme Sophir. In a just-released memo to the board, she explained the Chocolate Factory did not break US employment laws when it fired Damore last year for comments he made in his infamous anti-diversity manifesto.

Her recommendation (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4380791-NLRB-Advice-Memo-On-James-Damore.html) advises the labor board to throw out Damore's complaint against Google on the grounds the web giant had ample legal standing to can Damore for emitting that scatterbrain screed.

The ex-Googler dropped his complaint to the labor board earlier this month. He is still pursuing a civil lawsuit against Google in the California Superior Court over his sacking.

Sophir noted that Damore's memo created enough of an uproar at Google, and contained enough inflammatory claims about his female colleagues, that much of his rant against the tech goliath's diversity policies would not be protected under the National Labor Relations Act. Essentially, Damore claimed women's brains are just not inherently suited to engineering jobs, which is a pretty stupid thing to assert.

"Once [Damore's] memorandum was shared publicly, at least two female engineering candidates withdrew from consideration and explicitly named the memo as their reason for doing so," the lawyer advised.

"Thus, while much of the Charging Party's memorandum was likely protected, the statements regarding biological differences between the sexes were so harmful, discriminatory, and disruptive as to be unprotected."

Damore was not the only person to be disciplined after his essay leaked online. Sophir's memo details an email sent to Damore by a fellow Googler reading: "You're a misogynist and a terrible human. I will keep hounding you until one of us is fired. Fuck you."

That employee was given a "final warning" from Google bosses, we're told.

Sophir's memorandum goes on to say Damore's missive was also a liability for Google as not addressing it could have put the company at risk of complaints and legal action from other employees.

[Continues . . . (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/17/google_james_damore_labor_complaint/)]
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: jumbojak on February 18, 2018, 03:32:17 AM
I wanna know who the "fuck you" came from. I like their attitude.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Magdalena on February 18, 2018, 05:38:17 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on February 18, 2018, 03:32:17 AM
I wanna know who the "fuck you" came from. I like their attitude.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/eaIpScHwBsA5a/giphy.gif)
Me too.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on February 19, 2018, 01:42:30 PM
I read that stupid manifesto, I'm glad that this is happening to his cases. I hope the civil suit goes the same way.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 01:43:23 PM
Google is a triggered-SJW shithole at this point, if you'll pardon loaded vocabulary.

I think this here is a matter of principle, and mine dictate that you may not terminate an employee for "wrongthink," broadly not even when a crime was committed (For example through direct advocating of violence), especially over something as... Well, stupid, as diversity so-called issues. Now, I come at this from a socially homogenous Scandinavian perspective. In my corner of the world, there are no legal barriers preventing someone from achieving their academic, industrial or economic potential as they see fit. So, if the... Let's say females. No, actually, let's go with the Somali community, is generally underrepresented in Norwegian universities or in leadership positions in business and politics... That's not a problem any one except any given individual from said community needs to attempt to fix. Neither businesses, the government or the society in general owe them any sort of special dispensation, and in a culture which generally values individualism, they would be wrong to give it. [/giveuprambling]

Ok... I will attempt not to rant and ramble too much and to that end, I will try to outline the principles which dictate my position in this case without expanding them too much. If someone does want a conversation on some of them... Just start it, and I will try to stick with it. Here is my list;

1. (Capital 1. The rest sorted in no particular order) Free speech/free expression, especially as tied into 2. When someone comes for what is yours, and you are not allowed to speak against them... Blood will be spilled. Free speech and free expression are the ideals on which all my other ideals hinge.
2. Individualism, and intersectionalist bullshit be damned alongside Socialist (capital s) and Communist ideologies.
3. Liberty. Broadly, as long as I'm minding my own business, it is my business to mind. This is where the equality of opportunity comes in, while the equality of outcome is directly opposed to this.
4. Meritocracy. If I want a private plane like you, I'll have to earn it, just as if you want a job like mine, you will have to earn it.
5. Statism (less relevant here). I want a state to guarantee my abovementioned ideals to the best of its ability.

I suppose this makes me a raging alt-right-neo-nazi-racist-misogynist-scum plus a few other buzzwords, also known in the less hysterical parts of the anthroposphere as "Liberal"

So, where does this leave my despicable self in regard to this case?

If Google is trying to encourage people, other than those best suited for the job, to apply, that is anti-meritocratic and anti-individualistic and illiberal.
If Google then tries to silence or simply remove dissenting voices, that is anti-free-speech and illiberal and anti-individualist.

Not being completely jaded while waiting for the world to end in a nuclear apocalypse over some stupid shit yet, I have no choice but not to stand for that, so... I have made my objections known with my wallet.

By the way, I haven't really touched the content of mr. Damore's memo. That is because its content is largely irrelevant to the case I'm trying to make here, that being that MY perfect outcome is a freer world, not a more equal one. Still, if any one does want to discuss the finer points of the memo... I'll join one of them conversations in a heartbeat if I have anything at all to contribute.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 02, 2018, 03:32:04 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 01:43:23 PM
If Google is trying to encourage people, other than those best suited for the job, to apply[...]
They are not.

Quote from: Asmodean
If Google then tries to silence or simply remove dissenting voices[...]
They are not.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 03:46:48 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 02, 2018, 03:32:04 PM
They are not.

Quote from: GoogleEqual Opportunity
At Google, we don't just accept difference - we celebrate it, we support it, and we thrive on it for the benefit of our employees, our products and our community. Google is proud to be an equal opportunity workplace and is an affirmative action employer. We are committed to equal employment opportunity regardless of race, color, ancestry, religion, sex, national origin, sexual orientation, age, citizenship, marital status, disability, gender identity or Veteran status. We also consider qualified applicants regardless of criminal histories, consistent with legal requirements. If you have a disability or special need that requires accommodation, please let us know.
They are. Just from their own fucking careers footer, if nothing else... They are.

Quote from: Davin
They are not.
I refer you to the curious cases of James Damore and Tim Chevelier (Or... with added spelling)

The jury is out on this one, but the winds are indeed blowing towards a pretty strong "They are" here as well.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Biggus Dickus on April 02, 2018, 04:49:56 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/FW8VMC5.gif)
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Dave on April 02, 2018, 05:16:30 PM
I detest the perceived need for "affirmative action" in favour of any group. If any organisation is doing things correctly then they are choosing the right people regardless of gender, belief, nationality, colour or anything else. "Affirmative action" is usually a defence mechanism, a perception tool and may have little effect on the everyday behaviour of individuals.

There were movements in this country to promote anonymised initial selection techniques for jobs, but things like naming the school attended in a CV may indicate gender. So someone suggested "grading" all schools so that could be quoted. Got a bit silly.

In elections here "affirmative action" was proposed by listing woman only candidates for some seats. So some constituents did not actually get the local candidate of their choice but had an "outsider" foistered on them. Totally artficial, just image building but, yeah, until people get sendible msybe necessary.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 02, 2018, 05:18:22 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 03:46:48 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 02, 2018, 03:32:04 PM
They are not.

Quote from: GoogleEqual Opportunity
At Google, we don't just accept difference - we celebrate it, we support it, and we thrive on it for the benefit of our employees, our products and our community. Google is proud to be an equal opportunity workplace and is an affirmative action employer. We are committed to equal employment opportunity regardless of race, color, ancestry, religion, sex, national origin, sexual orientation, age, citizenship, marital status, disability, gender identity or Veteran status. We also consider qualified applicants regardless of criminal histories, consistent with legal requirements. If you have a disability or special need that requires accommodation, please let us know.
They are. Just from their own fucking careers footer, if nothing else... They are.
That would only be "not hiring the best" if you think that women cannot be the best. I don't think that is true.

Quote from: Asmodean
Quote from: Davin
They are not.
I refer you to the curious cases of James Damore and Tim Chevelier (Or... with added spelling)

The jury is out on this one, but the winds are indeed blowing towards a pretty strong "They are" here as well.
Did google delete what the guy said or otherwise remove it from the web? No? Then he did have free speech. Free speech does not guarantee that one doesn't suffer from the consequences of what they say, just that they get to say it. Free speech also doesn't subvert the rights of a company to fire someone toxic to their work environment.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 06:41:54 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 02, 2018, 05:18:22 PM
That would only be "not hiring the best" if you think that women cannot be the best. I don't think that is true.
Not unless you engage in some highly questionable identity politics.

Here is how you hire the best candidate:

1. Read as many of the prospective candidates' CVs as convenient.
2. Interview those qualified and appearing suitable.
3. Hire whomever you deem to be better suited for a job, OR
4. Do a second round of interviews, then return to 3, OR
5. Do a third one and/or ask for a work sample.
6. Return to 3. If dissatisfied with the best pick, return to 1.

Nowhere in these steps is "Give the job to the one with the penis," or "If they seem about equal, go with the black woman," or any - any such nonsense. YOU are the one bringing gender into this, not I. Or, translated to the issue at hand, Google is the physical characteristic obsessed party here, not Mr. Damore.

On a more personal-touchy-feely note, and do feel free to disregard the whole paragraph for that reason, I hardly think I have one core value, which the concept of affirmative action does not rub against the grain. I would not like to work in a place which hired thusly, if nothing else, because then I would look at my colleagues who fall into the "affirmative action enabled" cathegories and wonder, "are they here because they kick ass at the craft, oooorrr..." And unless they knew differently, I assume they would wonder the same. "Do I deserve to be here?" is a rather painful question to ponder over any sustained period of time.

Quote
Did google delete what the guy said or otherwise remove it from the web? No? Then he did have free speech. Free speech does not guarantee that one doesn't suffer from the consequences of what they say, just that they get to say it. Free speech also doesn't subvert the rights of a company to fire someone toxic to their work environment.
They were fired. From a tech company. (as opposed to news/tv/other direct media) Over some shit they said/posted/otherwise expressed. That said,

"Toxic to their work environment..."

My issue here is with the environment itself being politicised poison. Your response is quite beside the point I was making though, so I'm happy to drop it, unless you are interested in me addressing the finer points of free speech, personal and corporate responsibility.


Quote from: Papasito Bruno on April 02, 2018, 04:49:56 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/FW8VMC5.gif)
What's with the wamen-gif, Papasito..? You know I easily misunderstand such, unless explained using like... Words and shit  ;)

Quote from: Dave on April 02, 2018, 05:16:30 PM
I detest the perceived need for "affirmative action" in favour of any group. If any organisation is doing things correctly then they are choosing the right people regardless of gender, belief, nationality, colour or anything else. "Affirmative action" is usually a defence mechanism, a perception tool and may have little effect on the everyday behaviour of individuals.

There were movements in this country to promote anonymised initial selection techniques for jobs, but things like naming the school attended in a CV may indicate gender. So someone suggested "grading" all schools so that could be quoted. Got a bit silly.

In elections here "affirmative action" was proposed by listing woman only candidates for some seats. So some constituents did not actually get the local candidate of their choice but had an "outsider" foistered on them. Totally artficial, just image building but, yeah, until people get sendible msybe necessary.
Yeah... Give people freedom and stop bitching when they use said freedom without achieving your pre-assumed distributions-of-whatever, is what I say. But then again, half the Norwegian Internet probably thinks I'm a wife beater at this point, so what do I know?
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 02, 2018, 06:43:49 PM
Quote from: Dave on April 02, 2018, 05:16:30 PM
I detest the perceived need for "affirmative action" in favour of any group. If any organisation is doing things correctly then they are choosing the right people regardless of gender, belief, nationality, colour or anything else. "Affirmative action" is usually a defence mechanism, a perception tool and may have little effect on the everyday behaviour of individuals.

There were movements in this country to promote anonymised initial selection techniques for jobs, but things like naming the school attended in a CV may indicate gender. So someone suggested "grading" all schools so that could be quoted. Got a bit silly.

In elections here "affirmative action" was proposed by listing woman only candidates for some seats. So some constituents did not actually get the local candidate of their choice but had an "outsider" foistered on them. Totally artficial, just image building but, yeah, until people get sendible msybe necessary.
I believe that it is still required so long as people are not exposed enough.

This study for example, shows that there is a male bias in some things:
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/12/4403
QuoteAlthough there is some evidence of a sex difference in mathematics performance, which is shrinking over time, there is no sex disparity in performance on an arithmetic task such as ours. Nevertheless, the stereotype of women's inferior performance on every mathematics-related task is pervasive.

Also, in that study, you can see that the difference between a man's professed ability and actual ability is far greater than it is for women.

Maybe I'm just optimistic, but I do not think that an intentional bias is the major problem, I think that there are fewer of those people. I think the current issue affecting most is simply and unintentional bias.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 06:54:04 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 02, 2018, 06:43:49 PM
I believe that it is still required so long as people are not exposed enough.
Yes, but it is a terrible "solution."

You answer gender discrimination with more gender discrimination. You answer racial discrimination with more racial discrimination. And, on a broader scale, you answer opression with opression.

Rather than fighting fire with fire, might I suggest that you try and invent water?

I'm not trying to be a salty little cunt here, and I think you genuinely do care about this issue, but... How is your solution Liberal? And if it is not, why should I get on board? For that matter, why should the woman sitting next to me? The black guy two doors down? Any other INDIVIDUAL human being?

Quote
Maybe I'm just optimistic, but I do not think that an intentional bias is the major problem, I think that there are fewer of those people. I think the current issue affecting most is simply and unintentional bias.
I don't think it's bias. Well, it is, but... At least here, it's not a problem. Individual biases are the reason why my company, for example, has multiple people involved in hiring any one for any position - it's not just at the HR consultant's discretion, far from it.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 02, 2018, 07:12:29 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 06:41:54 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 02, 2018, 05:18:22 PM
That would only be "not hiring the best" if you think that women cannot be the best. I don't think that is true.
[...]Nowhere in these steps is "Give the job to the one with the penis," or "If they seem about equal, go with the black woman," or any - any such nonsense.[...]
This section addresses nothing I said so far, especially not the part you quoted, so I will ignore it.

The change in claims is noted, but the change seems to favor your point only if you ignore mine. The issue as presented is that you claimed that if a company focuses on hiring more women, then they will not get the best. This implies that women, (or more generously most women), are not the best. If women can be the best, then focusing on hiring more of them should still allow hiring the best.

Quote from: Asmodean
Quote
Did google delete what the guy said or otherwise remove it from the web? No? Then he did have free speech. Free speech does not guarantee that one doesn't suffer from the consequences of what they say, just that they get to say it. Free speech also doesn't subvert the rights of a company to fire someone toxic to their work environment.
They were fired. From a tech company. (as opposed to news/tv/other direct media) Over some shit they said/posted/otherwise expressed.
Not an uncommon practice, the specifics of which belong to another discussion. His speech is still out there and available, yes? Then he has his free speech. This is not a free speech issue.

Quote from: AsmodeanThat said,

"Toxic to their work environment..."

My issue here is with the environment itself being politicised poison.[...]
Then it shouldn't be an issue for the guy or you to not work there. Unless you feel like overwriting a company's rights merely to suit his (and apparently your), personal preferences.

Quote from: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 06:54:04 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 02, 2018, 06:43:49 PM
I believe that it is still required so long as people are not exposed enough.
Yes, but it is a terrible "solution."

You answer gender discrimination with more gender discrimination. You answer racial discrimination with more racial discrimination. And, on a broader scale, you answer opression with opression.
No, I'm not. Use my words, not how you feel about my words and you'll have a better time understanding what I mean.

Quote from: AsmodeanRather than fighting fire with fire, might I suggest that you try and invent water?
So no one gets a job? I don't see how that analogy makes sense any other way.

Quote from: AsmodeanI'm not trying to be a salty little cunt here, and I think you genuinely do care about this issue, but... How is your solution Liberal? And if it is not, why should I get on board? For that matter, why should the woman sitting next to me? The black guy two doors down? Any other INDIVIDUAL human being?
I don't give a shit about liberal or conservative. I don't give a shit about any kind of emotional labeling, I'm just in support of fixing a pervasive problem. I am not a liberal, I am not a conservative, I am not part of any political party... the reason people should be on board is if they want to fix problems, not for any childish thing like blindly supporting a group they think they belong to.

Quote from: Asmodean
Quote
Maybe I'm just optimistic, but I do not think that an intentional bias is the major problem, I think that there are fewer of those people. I think the current issue affecting most is simply and unintentional bias.
I don't think it's bias. Well, it is, but... At least here, it's not a problem. Individual biases are the reason why my company, for example, has multiple people involved in hiring any one for any position - it's not just at the HR consultant's discretion, far from it.
Having more people susceptible to the bias doesn't solve the problem of the bias. But it can make it worse, because the amount of biased gates (or even generously, "potentially biased gates"), a woman has to pass through necessarily decreases her odds to make it through to success.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Tom62 on April 02, 2018, 07:52:40 PM
I've seen this whole discussion dragged out on YouTube and Facebook. Apparently it is no longer allowed to have old fashioned ideas anymore. Merits no longer seem to count, it is all about skin colour and gender. Companies like Google could fire you for Wrong-think if you have a different opinion and you could be marked by fucking SJW morons as being a member of the Alt-Right. Apparently normal moderate conservative ideas are no longer wanted and everyone on the right of Marxism is now a Nazi.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Biggus Dickus on April 02, 2018, 07:59:27 PM
Quote from: Papasito Bruno on April 02, 2018, 04:49:56 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/FW8VMC5.gif)

That's Zoë Quinn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zo%C3%AB_Quinn) on the left, and Anita Sarkeesian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Sarkeesian) on the right...I figured they would be interested in watching the back and forth on this thread considering James Damore, the subject of the OP was fired because, and I'll paraphrase the scientifically shaky argument he presented in his memo "It's not discrimination...Females just aren't biologically suited for the maths"!

Basically the hero Damore and other Googler "White" men are saying they were fired for having conservative beliefs, and speaking up about them, because, you know, revolution is the festival of the oppressed or some such crap.

This is an actual excerpt from original class action law-suit.
QuoteDamore, Gudeman, and other class members were ostracized, belittled, and punished for their heterodox political views, and for the added sin of their birth circumstances of being Caucasians and/or males.

That's funny shit...they feel they are being discriminated against at a Company that is 70 percent Male, and 61 percent White...because they are white, and male.

Poor snowflakes.







Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 08:27:08 PM
I know well who they are - notice how I spelled "Wamen" in my question..? That's a reference to something.  ;)

Thanks for clarifying.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 02, 2018, 08:36:56 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on April 02, 2018, 07:52:40 PM
[...]Apparently it is no longer allowed to have old fashioned ideas anymore. Merits no longer seem to count, it is all about skin colour and gender.[...]Apparently normal moderate conservative ideas are no longer wanted and everyone on the right of Marxism is now a Nazi.
You're defending a port that no one is attacking.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 02, 2018, 08:41:39 PM
Quote from: Papasito Bruno on April 02, 2018, 07:59:27 PM
Quote from: Papasito Bruno on April 02, 2018, 04:49:56 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/FW8VMC5.gif)

That's Zoë Quinn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zo%C3%AB_Quinn) on the left, and Anita Sarkeesian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Sarkeesian) on the right...I figured they would be interested in watching the back and forth on this thread considering James Damore, the subject of the OP was fired because, and I'll paraphrase the scientifically shaky argument he presented in his memo "It's not discrimination...Females just aren't biologically suited for the maths"!

Basically the hero Damore and other Googler "White" men are saying they were fired for having conservative beliefs, and speaking up about them, because, you know, revolution is the festival of the oppressed or some such crap.

This is an actual excerpt from original class action law-suit.
QuoteDamore, Gudeman, and other class members were ostracized, belittled, and punished for their heterodox political views, and for the added sin of their birth circumstances of being Caucasians and/or males.

That's funny shit...they feel they are being discriminated against at a Company that is 70 percent Male, and 61 percent White...because they are white, and male.

Poor snowflakes.

Thanks for the links, Bruno.

I found this video on a few female game developers talking about suffering harassment and encountering barriers in the industry (it has Zoë Quinn in it):



I'm not part of the programming industry but I'd imagine there's a similar pervasive bias that women can't make good programmers in other departments.   

Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 02, 2018, 08:43:04 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 08:27:08 PM
I know well who they are - notice how I spelled "Wamen" in my question..? That's a reference to something.  ;)
That's not very civil of you, which is apparently inconsistently moderated.

I mean, I get reprimanded for making jokes about things that were said, but a moderator using an intentionally insulting term against specific women is OK?
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 02, 2018, 08:56:20 PM
Oh god, now I had to look up 'wamen' and apparently it was coined by probably the most attention-seeking whore of a youtuber in existence. A little ironic.

Asmo, oppression is still real in many respects. You might not feel it, you might do it yourself, but it's there. Probably most of the women you would call 'wamen' are not seeking to get more respect than men, they just want to be seen as equals and have an equal footing.

I don't agree with women who think the female gender are inherently superior but I sure as hell don't think that men are either. That's my view point. Am I a 'waman'? Maybe. Probably am.     
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 02, 2018, 09:11:28 PM
Quote from: Dave on April 02, 2018, 05:16:30 PM
There were movements in this country to promote anonymised initial selection techniques for jobs, but things like naming the school attended in a CV may indicate gender. So someone suggested "grading" all schools so that could be quoted. Got a bit silly.

I think this is actually a good idea.  :P Such 'blindness' is used in science for instance to try and eliminate biases.

People might like to think it all they want, but no human is a completely rational being who will not let emotions and preconceived beliefs get in the way of making a truly rational decision stripped of bias. Sometimes even a person's name can put you off and you might not even know it. If deep down you believe the ideal candidate for the job is a man, a female name will.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 09:53:10 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 02, 2018, 08:43:04 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 08:27:08 PM
I know well who they are - notice how I spelled "Wamen" in my question..? That's a reference to something.  ;)
That's not very civil of you, which is apparently inconsistently moderated.

I mean, I get reprimanded for making jokes about things that were said, but a moderator using an intentionally insulting term against specific women is OK?
Anita "Batman's butt" Sarkeesian and Zoe "Depression quest" Quinn. Knowing their works and agenda from and around the #gamergate controversy, if the term is to apply to somebody, those would be the two.  If you think the rules have been breached, report it and I will make my case to the staff (recused from any ruling, obviously)

...I can't say the warning you mentioned rings a bell.



@xSilverPhinx If you are interested, I can give you the short version of why I don't hold that particular pair in high esteem, or find them particularly trustworthy, for that matter. It's thoroughly old news now, though.

Was "wamen" actually coined by a YouTuber, by the way..? I'm a  bit vague on the etymology. I got it from forums meself.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 02, 2018, 10:08:53 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 09:53:10 PM
@xSilverPhinx If you are interested, I can give you the short version of why I don't hold that particular pair in high esteem, or find them particularly trustworthy, for that matter. It's thoroughly old news now, though.

Was "wamen" actually coined by a YouTuber, by the way..? I'm a  bit vague on the etymology. I got it from forums meself.

I would be interested. I like playing video games but haven't played in years so it isn't old news to me. Looks like I will have to look up gamergate now...

A correction, the term was not coined by the youtuber Pewdiepie like I had written, but popularised by him.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/wamen (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/wamen)

Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 10:10:58 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 02, 2018, 07:12:29 PM
The change in claims is noted, but the change seems to favor your point only if you ignore mine. The issue as presented is that you claimed that if a company focuses on hiring more women, then they will not get the best. This implies that women, (or more generously most women), are not the best. If women can be the best, then focusing on hiring more of them should still allow hiring the best.
No such implication (By the way, any missing or multiplied letters come courtesy of my mechanical keyboard. I may or may not spell check later)

Again, YOU are talking about women, not I. I don't give a fuck if the best person for the job has a vagina, and so I see no reason to encourage people with vaginas specifically to apply. So yes, if a company focuses on encouraging women to apply and prioritises hiring more women, as opposed to hiring who-the-fuck-ever is best suited for any given job, then... They may very well not get the best.



Quote
No, I'm not. Use my words, not how you feel about my words and you'll have a better time understanding what I mean.
I did. I'm a master of calling people out for putting words in my mouth. In this instance, however... Affirmative action discriminates by ways I mentioned above. You are noted as a proponent of affirmative action. Therefore, youuu support "fighting" discrimination with more discrimination. What exactly did I misrepresent about your position?

Quote
So no one gets a job? I don't see how that analogy makes sense any other way.
So no-one is discriminated against, which includes the bald white asshole with a tattooed scalp.

Quote
I don't give a shit about liberal or conservative. I don't give a shit about any kind of emotional labeling, I'm just in support of fixing a pervasive problem. I am not a liberal, I am not a conservative, I am not part of any political party... the reason people should be on board is if they want to fix problems, not for any childish thing like blindly supporting a group they think they belong to.
Wrong Liberal. In your world, the people I'm referring to are... In generic terms, I suuuppose they are Repuublican-leaning centrists. It's not a uestion of progressivism versus conservatism, but of liberty versus despotism. Just to restate an important point here, I'm making an argument from individual values, not from collective affiliation.

Quote
Having more people susceptible to the bias doesn't solve the problem of the bias. But it can make it worse, because the amount of biased gates (or even generously, "potentially biased gates"), a woman has to pass through necessarily decreases her odds to make it through to success.
That does sound rather nonsensical, but maybe I'm not seeingg something...  :headscratch:
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Recusant on April 02, 2018, 11:28:02 PM
Systematic bias appears to still exist in hiring practices in the US and other western countries. There are several examples of this available if one cares to look (see United States (https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jose-joe-job-discrimination_n_5753880), Netherlands (https://amsterdamshallowman.com/2017/07/arabic-sounding-name.html), Canada (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/careers/how-an-ethnic-sounding-name-may-affect-the-job-hunt/article555082/), United Kingdom (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/oct/18/racism-discrimination-employment-undercover), Sweden (http://www.temaasyl.se/Documents/Forskning/Forskningsstudier/What%E2%80%99s%20in%20a%20name.pdf) in regard to ethnicity, as well as a more generalised gender bias (https://www8.gsb.columbia.edu/newsroom/newsn/2700/new-research-proves-gender-bias-extraordinarily-prevalent-in-stem-careers)). Perhaps it isn't completely out of line for Google to make an effort to resist this phenomenon in its own hiring practices, even if it risks becoming known as a den of the loathsome 'SJW.'
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 11:58:34 PM
Effort is not the thing, with which I have a problem. I refer to my response to Davin's response to Dave.

EDIT: I will want to read the Sweden study more thoroughly, but this did catch my eye;
QuoteThe analyses suggest that CEOs with foreign sounding names prefer male applicants with Swedish sounding names, i.e. they have a prior against women as well as applicants with foreign sounding names. CEOs with Swedish sounding names have priors against applicants with foreign sounding names too (although the rate is higher for the former group), but they do not seem to prefer men over women. A possible explanation may be that CEOs with a foreign background worry more about discrimination on behalf of their customers and are therefore more concerned with having a staff with Swedish sounding names. And since Sweden is a country where women's labour force attachment is more solid than in most countries, it may be that CEOs that are ethnic Swedes are more positive toward female employees than are CEOs with foreign sounding names. 
I'd like to know why a CEO is involved in hiring in a medium or a large company or why the CEO does the calling back, among other things.

In any case, my postulate is that one thing, which will not solve this problem, if a problem it is, is more discrimination, especially of the legal variety.

@xSilverPhinx I need a better keyboard for that endeavour. I was thinking of looking at Anita's Tropes vs. Women series, which is available on her YouTube channel, https: //www.youtube.com/channel/UC7Edgk9RxP7Fm7vjQ1d-cDA (Look a couple of years back. I broke the link with a space after http: Epic nonsense to the tune of some eight hundred thousand dollars in funding) I've started on the post. TBC tomorrow afternoon.

Also, Pewds popularized wamen? Really?! Hm... Shows how well I know my memes, I guess.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 03, 2018, 12:13:21 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 11:58:34 PM
Effort is not the thing, with which I have a problem. I refer to my response to Davin's response to Dave.

@xSilverPhinx I need a better keyboard for that endeavour. I was thinking of looking at Anita's Tropes vs. Women series, which is available on her YouTube channel, https: //www.youtube.com/channel/UC7Edgk9RxP7Fm7vjQ1d-cDA (Look a couple of years back. I broke the link with a space after http: Epic nonsense to the tune of some eight hundred thousand dollars in funding) I've started on the post. TBC tomorrow afternoon.

Also, Pewds popularized wamen? Really?! Hm... Shows how well I know my memes, I guess.

Okie.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 03, 2018, 12:42:29 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on April 02, 2018, 07:52:40 PM
I've seen this whole discussion dragged out on YouTube and Facebook. Apparently it is no longer allowed to have old fashioned ideas anymore. Merits no longer seem to count, it is all about skin colour and gender. Companies like Google could fire you for Wrong-think if you have a different opinion and you could be marked by fucking SJW morons as being a member of the Alt-Right. Apparently normal moderate conservative ideas are no longer wanted and everyone on the right of Marxism is now a Nazi.
And yet, here we are, and little by little, my name is becoming Legion.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Bad Penny II on April 03, 2018, 11:53:11 AM
Freedom, Freedom!

Freedom is desirable I suppose though, no, no,  I will spare everyone a sweaty sports underwear metaphor and start a new sentence.

There was a time when woman were treated poorly in the labour market and by laws in general.
There was a time when indigenous/black people were treated poorly in the labour market and by laws in general.
Most would agree with that and those that don't, chortle chortle snigger snigger to their natural order of things.
It's all fixed now though isn't it?  A fair level playing field, well no, not quite.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 03, 2018, 12:30:14 PM
Yes, you see, you... You are onto something here.

A level playing field. Equality of opportunity.

Equality of outcome is putting weights on the better horses to make the race more interesting.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Bad Penny II on April 03, 2018, 12:40:18 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 03, 2018, 12:30:14 PM
Yes, you see, you... You are onto something here.

A level playing field. Equality of opportunity.

Equality of outcome is putting weights on the better horses to make the race more interesting.

Male horses tend to do better with a bit less weight.

Ms Mare...................Gonadless.......................................... Big Balls.
Gentled Gelding ................Feminazi........... Mr Testicles............
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 03, 2018, 01:08:36 PM
As do gay Latinx horses, or so I hear. They are white though, by European standards, so... Them's be having privilege right there. Something ought to be done about that. My suggestion? A few buckets of L'Oreal jet black dye. Because I'm worth it.

Straight female horses, on the other hand... Load 'em up! Actually, I believe that we who are politically to the right of Mao think this is some part of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy, which operates by ways of weighing down all the non-Jewish horses and... Insert Holocaust joke here. Hashtag misogyny hashtag notyourhorse hashtag rampantracism hashtag metoo

Eh... No sense in dragging my other virtual and physical life on HaF too... Let's just call this last one an esoteric reference.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 03, 2018, 02:59:10 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 09:53:10 PMIf you think the rules have been breached, report it and I will make my case to the staff (recused from any ruling, obviously)
I can't tell if rules are breached or not when there is no consistency. I can't get a consistent ruling from the moderators on these things, so you want us to pretend like there's no problem then and go use that unreliable system? That's fucking stupid.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Tank on April 03, 2018, 03:08:31 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 03, 2018, 02:59:10 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 09:53:10 PMIf you think the rules have been breached, report it and I will make my case to the staff (recused from any ruling, obviously)
I can't tell if rules are breached or not when there is no consistency. I can't get a consistent ruling from the moderators on these things, so you want us to pretend like there's no problem then and go use that unreliable system? That's fucking stupid.

Hi.

Save me the pain of reading the thread what's going on?
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Tank on April 03, 2018, 03:11:18 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 02, 2018, 08:43:04 PM
...

I mean, I get reprimanded for making jokes about things that were said, but a moderator using an intentionally insulting term against specific women is OK?
Is the woman in question a member of the forum? If not they are not protected by the rules.
Could the insult be considered generally sexist in nature? If so it may infringe the site rules.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 03, 2018, 03:13:53 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 10:10:58 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 02, 2018, 07:12:29 PM
The change in claims is noted, but the change seems to favor your point only if you ignore mine. The issue as presented is that you claimed that if a company focuses on hiring more women, then they will not get the best. This implies that women, (or more generously most women), are not the best. If women can be the best, then focusing on hiring more of them should still allow hiring the best.
No such implication (By the way, any missing or multiplied letters come courtesy of my mechanical keyboard. I may or may not spell check later)

Again, YOU are talking about women, not I. I don't give a fuck if the best person for the job has a vagina, and so I see no reason to encourage people with vaginas specifically to apply. So yes, if a company focuses on encouraging women to apply and prioritises hiring more women, as opposed to hiring who-the-fuck-ever is best suited for any given job, then... They may very well not get the best.
I like the way you keep trying to avoid the topic at hand. You apparently do care, because you said that if a company focuses on hiring more women, then they are not getting the best. That leaves you with only a few rationally valid options. Either you think that women cannot be the best or that less women can be the best. If you don't care about the best having a vagina, then why do you have an issue with a company focusing on hiring more women justifying it by saying that they then would not get the best? If you thought that women can be the best, then there should be just as many best women as best men, then there should be absolutely no issue with any hiring guideline to get up to about half of each. If there were no bias problem this would happen naturally and the rule wouldn't even matter... unless you think that women aren't as good as men.

Quote from: Asmodean
Quote
No, I'm not. Use my words, not how you feel about my words and you'll have a better time understanding what I mean.
I did. I'm a master of calling people out for putting words in my mouth. In this instance, however... Affirmative action discriminates by ways I mentioned above. You are noted as a proponent of affirmative action. Therefore, youuu support "fighting" discrimination with more discrimination. What exactly did I misrepresent about your position?
No I don't, but let me know when you can comprehend what I actually wrote.

Quote from: Asmodean
Quote
So no one gets a job? I don't see how that analogy makes sense any other way.
So no-one is discriminated against, which includes the bald white asshole with a tattooed scalp.
Not even discriminated against based on skill? This is not a flippant comment, this derives straight from the above, when you try to stretch a word that far, you make it useless, in that you're now supporting discrimination.

Quote from: Asmodean
Quote
I don't give a shit about liberal or conservative. I don't give a shit about any kind of emotional labeling, I'm just in support of fixing a pervasive problem. I am not a liberal, I am not a conservative, I am not part of any political party... the reason people should be on board is if they want to fix problems, not for any childish thing like blindly supporting a group they think they belong to.
Wrong Liberal. In your world, the people I'm referring to are... In generic terms, I suuuppose they are Repuublican-leaning centrists. It's not a uestion of progressivism versus conservatism, but of liberty versus despotism. Just to restate an important point here, I'm making an argument from individual values, not from collective affiliation.
I don't give a shit. Like I already said.

Quote from: Asmodean
Quote
Having more people susceptible to the bias doesn't solve the problem of the bias. But it can make it worse, because the amount of biased gates (or even generously, "potentially biased gates"), a woman has to pass through necessarily decreases her odds to make it through to success.
That does sound rather nonsensical, but maybe I'm not seeingg something...  :headscratch:
I'll try to simplify the concept, I figured that a developer would get the concept of gates and thought it rather simple to begin with.

Let's say that a qualified woman is going for a job, but instead of basing it on her skill, she is subject the already studied and proven biases that exist. So whether she gets the job or not is down to a coin flip. If tails she doesn't get hired. One flip is a 50% chance. But then you want to introduce more possibly biased people into the process. Two flips severely decreases her odds of getting heads both times. Then you want to add in three flips, and then her odds go down even more. The more flips (people you add to the process) doesn't increase her odds, it decreases them.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 03, 2018, 03:16:49 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 03, 2018, 03:11:18 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 02, 2018, 08:43:04 PM
...

I mean, I get reprimanded for making jokes about things that were said, but a moderator using an intentionally insulting term against specific women is OK?
Is the woman in question a member of the forum? If not they are not protected by the rules.
Could the insult be considered generally sexist in nature? If so it may infringe the site rules.
I would love to rely on the forum rules, but I can't. I don't break them and I still get a mod message. While in a topic I would think would be far more sensitive to degrading actual people, it's apparently just fine. Or maybe it's just not fine when I break some unwritten taboo.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Tank on April 03, 2018, 03:17:50 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 03, 2018, 03:16:49 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 03, 2018, 03:11:18 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 02, 2018, 08:43:04 PM
...

I mean, I get reprimanded for making jokes about things that were said, but a moderator using an intentionally insulting term against specific women is OK?
Is the woman in question a member of the forum? If not they are not protected by the rules.
Could the insult be considered generally sexist in nature? If so it may infringe the site rules.
I would love to rely on the forum rules, but I can't. I don't break them and I still get a mod message. While in a topic I would think would be far more sensitive to degrading actual people, it's apparently just fine. Or maybe it's just not fine when I break some unwritten taboo.
Thank you for not clarifying the situation.  ::)
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 03, 2018, 03:31:10 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 03, 2018, 03:17:50 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 03, 2018, 03:16:49 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 03, 2018, 03:11:18 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 02, 2018, 08:43:04 PM
...

I mean, I get reprimanded for making jokes about things that were said, but a moderator using an intentionally insulting term against specific women is OK?
Is the woman in question a member of the forum? If not they are not protected by the rules.
Could the insult be considered generally sexist in nature? If so it may infringe the site rules.
I would love to rely on the forum rules, but I can't. I don't break them and I still get a mod message. While in a topic I would think would be far more sensitive to degrading actual people, it's apparently just fine. Or maybe it's just not fine when I break some unwritten taboo.
Thank you for not clarifying the situation.  ::)
Alright, I'll fucking dumb it down then... even though it's right there if you followed what was quoted.

We're in an obviously divisive topic.
Asmodean claimed to intentionally insult some women (then doubled down in response to me by insulting them more).
Recently, I made jokes about what a person said (not insulting any specific person), and I got reprimanded in a far less sensitive topic.
So I'm a little lost here on what the fucking deal is? Is it civility? Is insulting some women a civil thing to do? Is that more civil than me only making jokes about things that are said?
Is there going to be a forum rule that we can all follow?

Because all it looks like to me is that y'all are playing Calvin ball with the rules but only when it comes to me.

For the record, I don't fucking care if he insults me or other people, my issue is with inconsistently applied moderation.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 03, 2018, 04:04:39 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 03, 2018, 03:11:18 PM
Is the woman in question a member of the forum? If not they are not protected by the rules.
Could the insult be considered generally sexist in nature? If so it may infringe the site rules.
Neither of them is, to the best of my knowledge.

Quote from: Davin on April 03, 2018, 03:13:53 PM
I like the way you keep trying to avoid the topic at hand. You apparently do care, because you said that if a company focuses on hiring more women, then they are not getting the best. That leaves you with only a few rationally valid options. Either you think that women cannot be the best or that less women can be the best. If you don't care about the best having a vagina, then why do you have an issue with a company focusing on hiring more women justifying it by saying that they then would not get the best? If you thought that women can be the best, then there should be just as many best women as best men, then there should be absolutely no issue with any hiring guideline to get up to about half of each. If there were no bias problem this would happen naturally and the rule wouldn't even matter... unless you think that women aren't as good as men.
You hire whoever is best suited for the job, with no regard to their genitals, unless specific genitalia is required in that particular vocation. This says nothing about "less women being the best" or "more women being the best," the only assumption I make, is that there is, in fact an person, who is better suited for the job than others.

We are talking past each other here. I come at this from the perspective of my values, which I have listed. Among them is individuality. I do not collectivise applicants by gender, ethnicity or whatever beyond their individual suitability for the job - that is your thing in this discussion.

I am not avoiding the topic at hand either; I think, based on my values, that Google's firing of James Damore was wrong. I have explained why, in the context of those values. You disputed (Very poorly, by the way) my premises, and I defended them, one of the points being that yes, I consider a company actively attempting to hire more women to be engaging in some illiberal, anti-individualist and anti-meritocratic practices. Why? Because if they were not, they would attempt to hire whoever is best suited for the job, their gender, ethnicity or whatever being irrelevant to the process.

Anonymous CVs may be a step in the right direction, if you want to discuss policy.


Quote
Not even discriminated against based on skill? This is not a flippant comment, this derives straight from the above, when you try to stretch a word that far, you make it useless, in that you're now supporting discrimination.
*Sigh* No, them's be individual attributes, not collective ones.

Scope: Discrimination is preferential or disadvantageous treatment of someone based on that person's group characteristics.

Quote
I don't give a shit. Like I already said.
No, you did not say that you did not care. You said you did not care about general political labels. I explained to you... You know what? I'm happy to drop this point, actually, as I'm doing a Sarkeesian/Quinn post and... It requires some labour and time.

Quote
I'll try to simplify the concept, I figured that a developer would get the concept of gates and thought it rather simple to begin with.

Let's say that a qualified woman is going for a job, but instead of basing it on her skill, she is subject the already studied and proven biases that exist. So whether she gets the job or not is down to a coin flip. If tails she doesn't get hired. One flip is a 50% chance. But then you want to introduce more possibly biased people into the process. Two flips severely decreases her odds of getting heads both times. Then you want to add in three flips, and then her odds go down even more. The more flips (people you add to the process) doesn't increase her odds, it decreases them.
I got it, actually. Some perspective related issues.

No, the system does not create more doors to lockpick as such. Every CV is handled by more than one person before it's sidelined or a call for an interview is made, just like there are several people handling the interviews (Though that usually in tiers, one after the other) Basically, you are tossing multiple coins at the same time, and sometimes, even if just one lands your way, you proceed to the next step.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 03, 2018, 04:14:06 PM
T, Davin is referring to this;

(Davin, if you disagree with my cropping of my opening posts here, do shout out. It's just for convenience and tl;dr)

Quote from: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 06:41:54 PM
Quote from: Papasito Bruno on April 02, 2018, 04:49:56 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/FW8VMC5.gif)
What's with the wamen-gif, Papasito..? You know I easily misunderstand such, unless explained using like... Words and shit  ;)

Quote from: Papasito Bruno on April 02, 2018, 07:59:27 PM
Quote from: Papasito Bruno on April 02, 2018, 04:49:56 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/FW8VMC5.gif)

That's Zoë Quinn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zo%C3%AB_Quinn) on the left, and Anita Sarkeesian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Sarkeesian) on the right...I figured they would be interested in watching the back and forth on this thread considering James Damore, the subject of the OP was fired because, and I'll paraphrase the scientifically shaky argument he presented in his memo "It's not discrimination...Females just aren't biologically suited for the maths"!

Basically the hero Damore and other Googler "White" men are saying they were fired for having conservative beliefs, and speaking up about them, because, you know, revolution is the festival of the oppressed or some such crap.

This is an actual excerpt from original class action law-suit.
QuoteDamore, Gudeman, and other class members were ostracized, belittled, and punished for their heterodox political views, and for the added sin of their birth circumstances of being Caucasians and/or males.

That's funny shit...they feel they are being discriminated against at a Company that is 70 percent Male, and 61 percent White...because they are white, and male.

Poor snowflakes.

Quote from: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 08:27:08 PM
I know well who they are - notice how I spelled "Wamen" in my question..? That's a reference to something.  ;)

Thanks for clarifying.

I was meming about Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn. I am in the process of making a post at the request of another member, explaining my problem with them. Frankly, I don't see an insult.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Magdalena on April 03, 2018, 04:16:17 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 03, 2018, 03:31:10 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 03, 2018, 03:17:50 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 03, 2018, 03:16:49 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 03, 2018, 03:11:18 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 02, 2018, 08:43:04 PM
...

I mean, I get reprimanded for making jokes about things that were said, but a moderator using an intentionally insulting term against specific women is OK?
Is the woman in question a member of the forum? If not they are not protected by the rules.
Could the insult be considered generally sexist in nature? If so it may infringe the site rules.
I would love to rely on the forum rules, but I can't. I don't break them and I still get a mod message. While in a topic I would think would be far more sensitive to degrading actual people, it's apparently just fine. Or maybe it's just not fine when I break some unwritten taboo.
Thank you for not clarifying the situation.  ::)
Alright, I'll fucking dumb it down then... even though it's right there if you followed what was quoted.

We're in an obviously divisive topic.
Asmodean claimed to intentionally insult some women (then doubled down in response to me by insulting them more).
Recently, I made jokes about what a person said (not insulting any specific person), and I got reprimanded in a far less sensitive topic.
So I'm a little lost here on what the fucking deal is? Is it civility? Is insulting some women a civil thing to do? Is that more civil than me only making jokes about things that are said?
Is there going to be a forum rule that we can all follow?

Because all it looks like to me is that y'all are playing Calvin ball with the rules but only when it comes to me.

For the record, I don't fucking care if he insults me or other people, my issue is with inconsistently applied moderation.
Davin,
Thank you for standing up for women here, and out there. I sincerely appreciate it.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/k5tam26yKaKqI/giphy.gif)
"Majestic Gratitude."

Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 03, 2018, 04:33:25 PM
I consider my reasons for going after those two in the way I did to be pretty sound, and my way of going about it mild. It has to do with what they did, the agendas they pushed and continue to push, the fucking... Drama and scumbaggery and attention seeking and possibly even something approaching fraud in Sarkeesian's case. They happen to both be female, but that is not actually a consideration beyond my gender-appropriate choice of meme.

Just a clarification.

T, I did not see your sexism question until now, so lemme address it;

I have provided some context already and will provide the working definition for evaluation.

Quote from: Urban dictionaryWamen
A rare species of women that usually need more attention/respect than any other women also some of them are an idiot(sometimes ask a stupid question like "Is math related to science?")


Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 03, 2018, 04:36:24 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 03, 2018, 04:04:39 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 03, 2018, 03:13:53 PM
I like the way you keep trying to avoid the topic at hand. You apparently do care, because you said that if a company focuses on hiring more women, then they are not getting the best. That leaves you with only a few rationally valid options. Either you think that women cannot be the best or that less women can be the best. If you don't care about the best having a vagina, then why do you have an issue with a company focusing on hiring more women justifying it by saying that they then would not get the best? If you thought that women can be the best, then there should be just as many best women as best men, then there should be absolutely no issue with any hiring guideline to get up to about half of each. If there were no bias problem this would happen naturally and the rule wouldn't even matter... unless you think that women aren't as good as men.
You hire whoever is best suited for the job, with no regard to their genitals, unless specific genitalia is required in that particular vocation. This says nothing about "less women being the best" or "more women being the best," the only assumption I make, is that there is, in fact an person, who is better suited for the job than others.
No, you said that the practice of hiring more women would resulting in not hiring the best. Or are you walking that back now?

Quote from: Asmodean
We are talking past each other here. I come at this from the perspective of my values, which I have listed. Among them is individuality. I do not collectivise applicants by gender, ethnicity or whatever beyond their individual suitability for the job - that is your thing in this discussion.

I am not avoiding the topic at hand either; I think, based on my values, that Google's firing of James Damore was wrong. I have explained why, in the context of those values. You disputed (Very poorly, by the way) my premises, and I defended them, one of the points being that yes, I consider a company actively attempting to hire more women to be engaging in some illiberal, anti-individualist and anti-meritocratic practices. Why? Because if they were not, they would attempt to hire whoever is best suited for the job, their gender, ethnicity or whatever being irrelevant to the process.

Anonymous CVs may be a step in the right direction, if you want to discuss policy.
Sure, I disputed them very poorly. Whatever makes you feel better about avoiding the points and talking about other things. And yet, opposed to what you just said a little farther up, you're saying again, that the practice of hiring more women will result in not hiring the best. Look into why you think that, why do you think that having more women hired means not hiring the best.

Quote from: Asmodean
Quote
Not even discriminated against based on skill? This is not a flippant comment, this derives straight from the above, when you try to stretch a word that far, you make it useless, in that you're now supporting discrimination.
*Sigh* No, them's be individual attributes, not collective ones.

Scope: Discrimination is preferential or disadvantageous treatment of someone based on that person's group characteristics.
So "unskilled" isn't groupable?

Quote from: Asmodean
Quote
I don't give a shit. Like I already said.
No, you did not say that you did not care.
Um... :lol: you do know that "I don't give a shit" means the same thing as "I don't care" right? I mean right?

Quote from: Asmodean
I got it, actually.
Then why did you say you didn't?

Quote from: Asmodean
No, the system does not create more doors to lockpick as such. Every CV is handled by more than one person before it's sidelined or a call for an interview is made, just like there are several people handling the interviews (Though that usually in tiers, one after the other) Basically, you are tossing multiple coins at the same time, and sometimes, even if just one lands your way, you proceed to the next step.
More coin tossing equals more chance of failure when success requires passing multiple tests and where only one failed test means failure. This is basic stuff here.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 03, 2018, 04:46:29 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 03, 2018, 04:36:24 PM
No, you said that the practice of hiring more women would resulting in not hiring the best. Or are you walking that back now?
No, I stand by it.

Quote
Sure, I disputed them very poorly. Whatever makes you feel better about avoiding the points and talking about other things. And yet, opposed to what you just said a little farther up, you're saying again, that the practice of hiring more women will result in not hiring the best. Look into why you think that, why do you think that having more women hired means not hiring the best.
Because you are looking to hire from a specific collective, defined by something other than suitability for the job.

Quote
So "unskilled" isn't groupable?
"Unskilled" as in lacking formal education can be. As can "Master of arts," or "Electrician" Not the point.

Quote
Quote
Quote
I don't give a shit. Like I already said.
No, you did not say that you did not care. You said you did not care about general political labels.
Um... :lol: you do know that "I don't give a shit" means the same thing as "I don't care" right? I mean right?
Fixed context.

Quote
Then why did you say you didn't?
Because at the time, I did not. I got it between me making my reply and you making yours to it in turn.

Quote
More coin tossing equals more chance of failure when success requires passing multiple tests and where only one failed test means failure. This is basic stuff here.
This is 180dg to what I stated. Well, not really as I was being lazy. If I OR you OR the HR think a candidate is interesting, they will get an interview, or at least get into a lottery for an interview. (Provided there is a job opening, naturally)
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 03, 2018, 05:01:24 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on April 03, 2018, 04:16:17 PM
Davin,
Thank you for standing up for women here, and out there. I sincerely appreciate it.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/k5tam26yKaKqI/giphy.gif)
"Majestic Gratitude."
I'm standing up for equality. Equality is better for all of us in the long run. If I thought that men were in trouble, and I had an equal amount of evidence for it, I'd be all about arguing for that. That's not the case though, and it's kind of laughable that a bunch of whiny men think it is a problem. That's OK to say right? I'm not sure, maybe it's only OK for other people  to say.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 03, 2018, 05:08:37 PM
Why would it not be OK? There's nothing controversial or abusive there. Wrong on a point or two, perhaps, but is that not exactly why we debate?

I'm interested though, what was it exactly that you got a strike for? Can you link to it or something?
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 03, 2018, 05:12:31 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 03, 2018, 04:46:29 PM
Quote
Sure, I disputed them very poorly. Whatever makes you feel better about avoiding the points and talking about other things. And yet, opposed to what you just said a little farther up, you're saying again, that the practice of hiring more women will result in not hiring the best. Look into why you think that, why do you think that having more women hired means not hiring the best.
Because you are looking to hire from a specific collective, defined by something other than suitability for the job.
Here's the thing though, hiring some one is never a one issue thing. And that still doesn't resolve the issue pointed out in the text that you just quoted.

Quote from: Asmodean
Quote
So "unskilled" isn't groupable?
"Unskilled" as in lacking formal education can be. As can "Master of arts," or "Electrician" Not the point.
So when my company hires for junior level or senior level developers, you're against that kind of discrimination? That's roughly based on skill level.

Quote from: Asmodean
Quote
Quote
Quote
I don't give a shit. Like I already said.
No, you did not say that you did not care. You said you did not care about general political labels.
Um... :lol: you do know that "I don't give a shit" means the same thing as "I don't care" right? I mean right?
Fixed context.
Thanks for fixing your error, but the thing is, and my point is, I don't give a shit. You know, like I already said. Whether you imagined that I was thinking about one or another "liberal" is an error on your side and not mine.

Quote from: Asmodean
Quote
More coin tossing equals more chance of failure when success requires passing multiple tests and where only one failed test means failure. This is basic stuff here.
This is 180dg to what I stated. Well, not really as I was being lazy. If I OR you OR the HR think a candidate is interesting, they will get an interview, or at least get into a lottery for an interview. (Provided there is a job opening, naturally)
That is not my experience for hiring processes. HR is it's own gate and as far as I can tell, it will always be. All hiring considerations must pass through HR. Maybe some companies work differently, doesn't matter, there are still multiple gates making the chance for success, for a woman, much lower than for men because there is a studied and demonstrable bias against women.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Magdalena on April 03, 2018, 05:13:47 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 03, 2018, 05:01:24 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on April 03, 2018, 04:16:17 PM
Davin,
Thank you for standing up for women here, and out there. I sincerely appreciate it.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/k5tam26yKaKqI/giphy.gif)
"Majestic Gratitude."
I'm standing up for equality. Equality is better for all of us in the long run. If I thought that men were in trouble, and I had an equal amount of evidence for it, I'd be all about arguing for that. That's not the case though, and it's kind of laughable that a bunch of whiny men think it is a problem. That's OK to say right? I'm not sure, maybe it's only OK for other people  to say.
I know you're standing up for equality. My comment was just for this:
Quote from: Davin on April 03, 2018, 03:31:10 PM
I mean, I get reprimanded for making jokes about things that were said, but a moderator using an intentionally insulting term against specific women is OK?
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 03, 2018, 05:21:11 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on April 03, 2018, 05:13:47 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 03, 2018, 05:01:24 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on April 03, 2018, 04:16:17 PM
Davin,
Thank you for standing up for women here, and out there. I sincerely appreciate it.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/k5tam26yKaKqI/giphy.gif)
"Majestic Gratitude."
I'm standing up for equality. Equality is better for all of us in the long run. If I thought that men were in trouble, and I had an equal amount of evidence for it, I'd be all about arguing for that. That's not the case though, and it's kind of laughable that a bunch of whiny men think it is a problem. That's OK to say right? I'm not sure, maybe it's only OK for other people  to say.
I know you're standing up for equality. My comment was just for this:
Quote from: Davin on April 03, 2018, 03:31:10 PM
I mean, I get reprimanded for making jokes about things that were said, but a moderator using an intentionally insulting term against specific women is OK?
I mean I guess I do care about that more than I thought. If the forum is to support civility then the lines drawn don't make sense to me.

I don't think that insulting women, even ones not currently commenting, provides a very friendly environment. I think that in  some contexts it's OK, like in joke threads, where I also think it's OK to make fun of men.

This thread though, talking about issues specific to women getting discriminated against, is not a good place to allow the insulting of women. I mean that kind of literally adds insult to injury.

The thread is already titled, "US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!" isn't that enough? Do we really need to add onto that by insulting women?

I'm going to take a break for at least a few hours.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Magdalena on April 03, 2018, 05:34:26 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 03, 2018, 05:21:11 PM
...
I'm going to take a break for at least a few hours.
Okay.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 03, 2018, 06:55:37 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 03, 2018, 05:08:37 PM
I'm interested though, what was it exactly that you got a strike for? Can you link to it or something?

Davin did not get a strike, and it wasn't even an official warning: http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=15684.msg370965#msg370965 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=15684.msg370965#msg370965). More of a 'could you please stop fueling the fire?' mod request.

It drags on for a bit until eventually Rift Zone got an official warning.  ::)

As for Asmo, I don't like that he used the word 'wamen', I find it incredibly derogatory, but I'm still waiting for him to make his case.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 03, 2018, 07:11:08 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 03, 2018, 06:55:37 PM
As for Asmo, I don't like that he used the word 'wamen', I find it incredibly derogatory, but I'm still waiting for him to make his case.
I'm typing, I'm typing!  ;)
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 03, 2018, 08:04:01 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 03, 2018, 07:11:08 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 03, 2018, 06:55:37 PM
As for Asmo, I don't like that he used the word 'wamen', I find it incredibly derogatory, but I'm still waiting for him to make his case.
I'm typing, I'm typing!  ;)

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FfQZX2aoRC1Tqw%2Fgiphy.gif&hash=bd2233ac4bceaa9ae73c95bddbb901d4d815005d)
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: hermes2015 on April 04, 2018, 04:59:11 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 03, 2018, 06:55:37 PM
As for Asmo, I don't like that he used the word 'wamen', I find it incredibly derogatory, but I'm still waiting for him to make his case.

I've never heard of that term. I assumed it was a typo.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 04, 2018, 05:56:12 AM
Quote from: hermes2015 on April 04, 2018, 04:59:11 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 03, 2018, 06:55:37 PM
As for Asmo, I don't like that he used the word 'wamen', I find it incredibly derogatory, but I'm still waiting for him to make his case.

I've never heard of that term. I assumed it was a typo.

Me too.  This is how we know we're just too damn old.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 04, 2018, 02:33:35 PM
Quote from: Sandra Craft on April 04, 2018, 05:56:12 AM
Quote from: hermes2015 on April 04, 2018, 04:59:11 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 03, 2018, 06:55:37 PM
As for Asmo, I don't like that he used the word 'wamen', I find it incredibly derogatory, but I'm still waiting for him to make his case.

I've never heard of that term. I assumed it was a typo.

Me too.  This is how we know we're just too damn old.

He clarified just a bit later that it was not a typo and was intentional.
Quote from: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 08:27:08 PM
I know well who they are - notice how I spelled "Wamen" in my question..? That's a reference to something.  ;)
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Biggus Dickus on April 04, 2018, 03:29:39 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 03, 2018, 07:11:08 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 03, 2018, 06:55:37 PM
As for Asmo, I don't like that he used the word 'wamen', I find it incredibly derogatory, but I'm still waiting for him to make his case.
I'm typing, I'm typing!  ;)

(https://i.imgur.com/AIpaeAp.gif)
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 04, 2018, 03:41:33 PM
Quote from: Papasito Bruno on April 04, 2018, 03:29:39 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/AIpaeAp.gif)
She will need more popcorn. She be demoted to Part 3.  8)
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Bad Penny II on April 04, 2018, 04:07:25 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 03, 2018, 05:21:11 PM
I don't think that insulting women, even ones not currently commenting, provides a very friendly environment.

Almost everyone here insults Trump.
No one calls anyone out on that.

Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 04, 2018, 04:25:55 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on April 04, 2018, 04:07:25 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 03, 2018, 05:21:11 PM
I don't think that insulting women, even ones not currently commenting, provides a very friendly environment.
No one calls
Maybe you changed your phone number?
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 04, 2018, 05:48:11 PM
Quote
Almost everyone here insults Trump.
No one calls anyone out on that.
Maybe I should white knight for him? Wouldn't that be something?! :oooh-me!:
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 04, 2018, 05:59:19 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 04, 2018, 05:48:11 PM
Quote
Almost everyone here insults Trump.
No one calls anyone out on that.
Maybe I should white knight for him? Wouldn't that be something?! :oooh-me!:
Not a big leap from your white knighting for Damore.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 04, 2018, 06:06:41 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 04, 2018, 05:59:19 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 04, 2018, 05:48:11 PM
Quote
Almost everyone here insults Trump.
No one calls anyone out on that.
Maybe I should white knight for him? Wouldn't that be something?! :oooh-me!:
Not a big leap from your white knighting for Damore.
Ooh, it would be quite a leap, as I would have to learn to get offended on behalf of Trump for things coming out of people's mouth. I'm honestly not sure if I'm up to the challenge, but I suppose I could troll my way through it.  :grin:
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 04, 2018, 07:27:47 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 04, 2018, 06:06:41 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 04, 2018, 05:59:19 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on April 04, 2018, 05:48:11 PM
Quote
Almost everyone here insults Trump.
No one calls anyone out on that.
Maybe I should white knight for him? Wouldn't that be something?! :oooh-me!:
Not a big leap from your white knighting for Damore.
Ooh, it would be quite a leap, as I would have to learn to get offended on behalf of Trump for things coming out of people's mouth. I'm honestly not sure if I'm up to the challenge, but I suppose I could troll my way through it.  :grin:
I suppose you could, I'm sure that your white knighting is boundless. On with your fight for social justice.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 04, 2018, 08:10:39 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 04, 2018, 07:27:47 PM
I suppose you could, I'm sure that your white knighting is boundless. On with your fight for social justice.
I could too, couldn't I?!  :frolic:

Pretending to be an SJW for Trump... THAT can be turned into some epic comedy, I think. I don't really see an angle at the moment, but... I'll think about it.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 04, 2018, 09:12:27 PM
Just use the same angle you're using for Damore and #GamerGate. The strategy is the same: Ignore misogynistic behavior and views while pretending that there is something else driving the person and/or movement.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Asmodean on April 04, 2018, 09:53:56 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 04, 2018, 09:12:27 PM
pretending that there is something else driving the person and/or movement.
Yeah... This right here, you may need to substantiate.

As for Damore, no, it wouldn't work. My beef with Google is not over what they said, but what they did and how they operate.
Title: Re: US National Labor Relations Board Has Been Corrupted by Feminazis!
Post by: Davin on April 06, 2018, 08:47:42 PM
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/not-smart-enough-men-overestimate-intelligence-science-class-n862801?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma
Quote
The average grade in the class was a 3.3. But when they asked students to ask if they were smarter than their classmates, "the average male student thinks he is smarter than 66 percent of the class, while the average female student thinks she is smarter than 54 percent of the class," Brownell said.

Statistically, about half of people in any group should be above the average, and half below it.

The students worked in groups and as partners and when asked to rate themselves compared to their closest workmate, the men thought they'd be smarter than 61 percent of their colleagues. Women put the number closer to 33 percent.

[...]

"Females are not participating as much in science class. They are not raising their hands and answering questions." It's not that they are less able, but that they see themselves as less able — and so do their teachers, classmates and, eventually, employers.

That is all in spite of the actual grades.

I doubt that the men are intentionally being biased, but the bias is still there.