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Joining the revolt

Started by harte.beest, May 13, 2012, 02:48:03 AM

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ThinkAnarchy

Quote from: harte.beest on May 16, 2012, 04:18:24 AM
Yes but theists could also say they all believe in a god, and that is where the sameness ends. Yet millions of them not only think it's their goal to lead a good life, but to spread their beliefs (hence jehovah witness' knocking on your door)

Theism goes beyond simply the question of if there is a god. The bible, koran, and I would imagine the Book of Mormon teach beliefs that go beyond the question atheists have answered for themselves.

Religion does not attempt to answer one simple question, but many. Atheism deals simply with the question of god and the conclusion that their is no evidence to believe in one.

Each religion attempts to claim far more than what atheism does and they have ripped common threads from other religions. So of course there are similarities among them. Again, atheism is simply the conclusion there is no god. We make no other claims as atheists and any other views we share with other atheists are most likely rooted in political philosophy or something similar, not in our atheism.

There is no debate about the definition of atheism; it's very simple. No gods'.

"He that displays too often his wife and his wallet is in danger of having both of them borrowed." -Ben Franklin

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -credited to Franklin, but not sure.

ThinkAnarchy

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 16, 2012, 04:38:26 AM

That's my birthday wish every year.  Besides, trying to deconvert people is just as presumptious and annoying as trying to convert them, and I have enough bad habits as it is.

I think my family thought I was trying to deconvert them for a while. I simply wanted them to understand why I no longer believed in god, which has never worked well. Now we simply don't talk about it much and whenever they say something about it, I simply let it go. I accept they will never understand, and they have stopped trying to bring me back to Jesus every time I visit.
"He that displays too often his wife and his wallet is in danger of having both of them borrowed." -Ben Franklin

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -credited to Franklin, but not sure.

Recusant

#77
Quote from: harte.beest on May 16, 2012, 04:18:24 AMI was going to ask what am I, since I have the goal of deconverting the world...... but since you guys don't know a thing about me I'll tell you a little personal info........... let me know if it's not enough....... (cracks knuckles)

Given that "converting" and "de-converting" are two sides of the same coin, and that one of the definitions of evangelism is "militant or crusading zeal," your goal sounds remarkably like evangelism; just sayin'.

Quote from: harte.beest on May 16, 2012, 04:18:24 AMWithout letting this devolve into a conversation about the definition of atheism.

Why do you feel there shouldn't (or as you said couldn't) be a goal to atheism, why not deconvert people.

It isn't about my feelings regarding the term, it's about accurate usage. It seems that you would like to add baggage the word. If you don't want this conversation to be about the definition of "atheism," then don't try to redefine it.

Quote from: harte.beest on May 16, 2012, 04:18:24 AMDo you not feel any responsibilty to spread "the doctrine that there is no deity".

No, I feel no responsibility in that direction. I consider atheism a doctrine only in the sense that it's a position on the existence of a god or gods. The generally understood meaning of "doctrine" as equivalent to "dogma" is not applicable, in my opinion.

Quote from: harte.beest on May 16, 2012, 04:18:24 AMCould I convert your kids  to evangelical(-ism?) without you saying two words to them, about it?

The wording of this question is nebulous; would you mind clarifying what it is that you're asking me?
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Ali

#78
For me, I think the reason why I'm not trying to deconvert people is that unlike a theist I see no real problems with being wrong. Theists believe that those who are wrong are going to hell. That's a big motivator to try to convert people, they believe there're dire consequences for not believing.  On the flipside I believe that there're consequences for believing in a false god, but those consequences mainly have to do with wasted time and energy. Being the pragmatist I am, I think that whatever people believe to bring some comfort and joy into their lives is probably okay. In the end what is it really matter? Right or wrong, they'll still be dead someday just like me. Why rob them of their small comforts? The only time I get antsy is when they want to push their beliefs on other people or write them into law. As long as they leave me alone, I'm content leave them alone because honestly, I have no skin in that game. All I can think is that people who are passionate about about deconverting others must be far less fatalistic than I am; they apparently think their efforts matter. I really don't. It doesn't matter to me what other people believe, they arent going to be punished for their incorrect beliefs, and hey, whatever helps them sleep through the night.  I just want to be left alone

The Magic Pudding

There is the problem that extreme theists can be anti science or pro uncontrolled population growth.
I want our efforts focused on our short to long term survival, perhaps a Star Trek future without the tv series need for enemies.  Moderate theists could probably fit in, anyway I'm not convinced they can be de-converted without harsh means that contradict the desired end.

A scenario:  You are the brilliant extraordinarily rich person you always knew you would be.  Through science you barely look thirty even though you are four times that age.  Your base of operations is on a Jupiter moon, the politics of Earth, the restrictions of the religious made it simpler to just move off shore. 

Now the time has come to choose crew for a generation ship and settlers to be put on ice until they reach their destination.  You've got say 5% theists in your organisation, do you filter religion out or send it out into the stars?

harte.beest

#80
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on May 16, 2012, 04:36:32 AM
Quote from: harte.beest on May 16, 2012, 04:18:24 AM

Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on May 16, 2012, 01:57:03 AM
My current Atheist agenda:

- Clean out fridge
- Finish reading a chapter in one of my textbooks
- Complete a list of topic ideas for the rest of the week and send them to my editor
- Put on jammies
- Watch Lost on Netflix
- Try to refrain from binging on chocolate
- Fail to refrain from binging on chocolate
- Maybe paint my toesies


That pretty much sums up my nefarious atheist schemes. At least before bedtime.

Couldn't a theist have this same agenda, what separates you from them?


Nothing in this instance. That's kinda my point. I can be an atheist without any "atheist goals". It doesn't change who I am.

yes you can be an atheist with no agenda but can you be an atheist with an agenda and if not what would you call that person?

Quote from: The Magic Pudding on May 16, 2012, 04:40:45 AM
Quote from: harte.beest on May 16, 2012, 04:18:24 AM
I was going to ask what am I, since I have the goal of deconverting the world...... but since you guys don't know a thing about me I'll tell you a little personal info........... let me know if it's not enough....... (cracks knuckles)



Some people describe themselves as anti-theist/theism.
Some would be against aspects of religion but don't adopt the designation.

How are you going to de-convert people?

It's very easy..... it depends on the person of course... I'll show you how if you give me an example of a theist

Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on May 16, 2012, 04:54:10 AM
Quote from: harte.beest on May 16, 2012, 04:18:24 AM
Yes but theists could also say they all believe in a god, and that is where the sameness ends. Yet millions of them not only think it's their goal to lead a good life, but to spread their beliefs (hence jehovah witness' knocking on your door)

Theism goes beyond simply the question of if there is a god. The bible, koran, and I would imagine the Book of Mormon teach beliefs that go beyond the question atheists have answered for themselves.

Religion does not attempt to answer one simple question, but many. Atheism deals simply with the question of god and the conclusion that their is no evidence to believe in one.

Each religion attempts to claim far more than what atheism does and they have ripped common threads from other religions. So of course there are similarities among them. Again, atheism is simply the conclusion there is no god. We make no other claims as atheists and any other views we share with other atheists are most likely rooted in political philosophy or something similar, not in our atheism.

There is no debate about the definition of atheism; it's very simple. No gods'.



yes but theism is different from religion, there are many types of theists, muslims, mormons, scientologists, etc... but the one thing that unifies them, or makes them all the same, is that they believe in god

There is no debate about the definition of theism; it's very simple. gods'.

Quote from: Recusant on May 16, 2012, 05:34:44 AM
Quote from: harte.beest on May 16, 2012, 04:18:24 AM
I was going to ask what am I, since I have the goal of deconverting the world...... but since you guys don't know a thing about me I'll tell you a little personal info........... let me know if it's not enough....... (cracks knuckles)

Given that "converting" and "de-converting" are two sides of the same coin, and that one of the definitions of evangelism is "militant or crusading zeal," your goal sounds remarkably like evangelism; just sayin'.

hmmm...... "evangelic atheist" I think I've found my new label ;D.......... what do you think? too christey?

Quote from: Recusant on May 16, 2012, 05:34:44 AM
Quote from: harte.beest on May 16, 2012, 04:18:24 AM
Without letting this devolve into a conversation about the definition of atheism.

Why do you feel there shouldn't (or as you said couldn't) be a goal to atheism, why not deconvert people.

It isn't about my feelings regarding the term, it's about accurate usage. It seems that you would like to add baggage the word. If you don't want this conversation to be about the definition of "atheism," then don't try to redefine it.  

noted ::)

how about this:

Why did you say there shouldn't (or as you said couldn't) be a goal to atheism, why not deconvert people?


Quote from: Recusant on May 16, 2012, 05:34:44 AM
Quote from: harte.beest on May 16, 2012, 04:18:24 AM
Do you not feel any responsibilty to spread "the doctrine that there is no deity".

No, I feel no responsibility in that direction. I consider atheism a doctrine only in the sense that it's a position on the existence of a god or gods. The generally understood meaning of "doctrine" as equivalent to "dogma" is not applicable, in my opinion.
So I can't redifine the word atheism but you can redefine the word doctrine, I see how it is  ::)

doctrine is simply defined as "that which is taught", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine#Indoctrination

Let's not get into a long........... fruitless agrument about word definitions, don't you see your freinds and family making bad decisions based faulty religous beleifs? DO you not feel you're able to deconvert people? DO you think that you don't have the right to deconvert people? Do you not see political decisions however small or large being made because of religion? People who vote based on religion?

Knowledge is power and with great power comes great responsibility..... :)
Quote from: Recusant on May 16, 2012, 05:34:44 AM
Quote from: harte.beest on May 16, 2012, 04:18:24 AM
Could I convert your kids  to evangelical(-ism?) without you saying two words to them, about it?

The wording of this question is nebulous; would you mind clarifying what it is that you're asking me?


Alright let's try something a little less vague:

you have daughter, she meets man who is not very religous at first, you approve of him, and she marries him, they have a kid your first grandchild, once they have children her huband's mother starts preaching about church and and all that wonderful stuff, she not only convinces her son to go back to church, but convinces your daughter to go to the same church, and raise YOUR GRANDHILD as a protestant, catholic, or whatever. your daughter (still an athiest) wants to raise the children atheist, but because of the mother-in-law she feels she has no say in the matter.

What would you do?

Quote from: Ali on May 16, 2012, 05:48:06 AM
For me, I think the reason why I'm not trying to deconvert people is that unlike a theist I see no real problems with being wrong. Theists believe that those who are wrong are going to hell. That's a big motivator to try to convert people, they believe there're dire consequences for not believing.  On the flipside I believe that there're consequences for believing in a false god, but those consequences mainly have to do with wasted time and energy. Being the pragmatist I am, I think that whatever people believe to bring some comfort and joy into their lives is probably okay. In the end what is it really matter? Right or wrong, they'll still be dead someday just like me. Why rob them of their small comforts? The only time I get antsy is when they want to push their beliefs on other people or write them into law. As long as they leave me alone, I'm content leave them alone because honestly, I have no skin in that game. All I can think is that people who are passionate about about deconverting others must be far less fatalistic than I am; they apparently think their efforts matter. I really don't. It doesn't matter to me what other people believe, they arent going to be punished for their incorrect beliefs, and hey, whatever helps them sleep through the night.  I just want to be left alone

That is the point though..... these people effect your lives on a daily basis....example:  the reason we have a crumbling education system in America is because religous fanatics hate public school and want everything to be private christian schools and if a good chunk of kids don't learn to read and write it won't matter because they would've "saved the souls" of so many

there's a million other situations abortion, gay rights, stem cell research, birth control, gun control, the tea party doesn't want small government they want theocracy.....

Don't you think it "would" be easier to deconvert people before they go insane?

Quote from: The Magic Pudding on May 16, 2012, 06:37:29 AM
There is the problem that extreme theists can be anti science or pro uncontrolled population growth.
I want our efforts focused on our short to long term survival, perhaps a Star Trek future without the tv series need for enemies.  Moderate theists could probably fit in, anyway I'm not convinced they can be de-converted without harsh means that contradict the desired end.

A scenario:  You are the brilliant extraordinarily rich person you always knew you would be.  Through science you barely look thirty even though you are four times that age.  Your base of operations is on a Jupiter moon, the politics of Earth, the restrictions of the religious made it simpler to just move off shore.  

Now the time has come to choose crew for a generation ship and settlers to be put on ice until they reach their destination.  You've got say 5% theists in your organisation, do you filter religion out or send it out into the stars?

you filter it out, religion will die as soon as the followers start dieing faster they can convert or give birth to new ones, you don't see many people building Thor statues anymore do you?

Atheism will never die.......... no matter how many of us you "get rid of"

ThinkAnarchy

Of course an individual atheist can have an agenda. But you originally posed the question as what is atheisms unified mission. What should we all hope to accomplish. At least that is what I gathered from your initial posts, and I imagine that is how others read it as well.

From post #57
QuoteWhat is the goal of atheism? After we deconvert the world, what is the goal afterwards?

From post #64
QuoteWhat do you mean by "there is no goal in atheism"?

I realize I likely won't get an answer to this question, but how old are you? We still don't have any idea who we are talking with.

"He that displays too often his wife and his wallet is in danger of having both of them borrowed." -Ben Franklin

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -credited to Franklin, but not sure.

kitty

forgive me if i'm wrong, but i'm starting to think that its the 'coming together' of atheists on forums such as this, that make harte.beest think that there must be a cause. it's possible i guess that he hasnt seen the affects being an atheist has on people, how people are treated when they stand up for what they believe (or dont believe) in. he might not see the important of just meeting like this for the camaraderie, rather than for an actual cause.

i also think that 'de-converting' people is no better than the over-zealous relgious types. whatever my idea of the world is, i dont think i have a right to shove it down anyone's neck. share ideas of course, but no shoving.

as for harte.beest's posts, i cant help but feel that sometimes you mis-read something and run away with the idea you've developed in yr head. recusant didnt 'call' you an evangelical, he said yr idea of deconverting everyone sounded evangelical.

i think as atheists, and as humans, its our job to stand up for other humans when they are being abused, taken advantage of, etc etc. people should be able to make their own mistakes, thats life, so long as no-one else is negatively affected. thats not deconverting, thats just standing up for what it right, and kind, and caring.
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? (Douglas Adams)

McQ

Until such time as hartebeest stops obfuscating and begins to answer questions directed to him/her, I am requesting that other members refrain from posting new questions or engaging him/her in further discussion. hartebeest, I am giving you a board warning to stop the talk of killing theists, period. You have not yet demonstrated that you are simply not trolling. You will be limited to posting in the "Getting to Know You" section of the forum until I feel confident that you are going to respond to the directions of the moderating staff and can post responsibly and in accordance with forums rules and guidelines.
Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Jillette

Tank

Quote from: kitty on May 16, 2012, 10:23:43 AM
forgive me if i'm wrong, but i'm starting to think that its the 'coming together' of atheists on forums such as this, that make harte.beest think that there must be a cause. it's possible i guess that he hasnt seen the affects being an atheist has on people, how people are treated when they stand up for what they believe (or dont believe) in. he might not see the important of just meeting like this for the camaraderie, rather than for an actual cause.

i also think that 'de-converting' people is no better than the over-zealous relgious types. whatever my idea of the world is, i dont think i have a right to shove it down anyone's neck. share ideas of course, but no shoving.

as for harte.beest's posts, i cant help but feel that sometimes you mis-read something and run away with the idea you've developed in yr head. recusant didnt 'call' you an evangelical, he said yr idea of deconverting everyone sounded evangelical.

i think as atheists, and as humans, its our job to stand up for other humans when they are being abused, taken advantage of, etc etc. people should be able to make their own mistakes, thats life, so long as no-one else is negatively affected. thats not deconverting, thats just standing up for what it right, and kind, and caring.

I think that deserve your first 'Orson'



If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Sandra Craft

^^^ love that!  And ditto, kitty.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

kitty

aw thanks! i'm touched lol
#blows kisses and curtsies

and ditto to McQ
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? (Douglas Adams)

technolud

I've been watching this thread closely, never seen one quite like it.  Nicely handled HAF.

kitty

Quote from: technolud on May 16, 2012, 09:45:37 PM
I've been watching this thread closely, never seen one quite like it.  Nicely handled HAF.

me too. been interesting.
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? (Douglas Adams)

Buddy

Quote from: technolud on May 16, 2012, 09:45:37 PM
I've been watching this thread closely, never seen one quite like it.  Nicely handled HAF.

We had a similar one a while back with a theist named Egor. It was pretty entertaining.
Strange but not a stranger<br /><br />I love my car more than I love most people.