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Started by AlP, November 28, 2011, 06:55:10 AM

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AlP

I'm still alive. Some of you won't know me so I'll say hello. Hi! I thought I would reintroduce myself by starting an argument...

The "99%" movement thing got me thinking about Nietzsche, specifically his book The Antichrist. It is, in my opinion, his most coherent book.

What got me thinking about Nietzsche was that the "99%" appear to explicitly and by their own choice rank themselves aside from the "1%".

The thing that struck me from Nietzsche was this:

"We should not deck out and embellish Christianity: it has waged a war to the death against this _higher_ type of man, it has put all the deepest instincts of this type under its ban, it has developed its concept of evil, of the Evil One himself, out of these instincts--the strong man as the typical reprobate, the "outcast among men." Christianity has taken the part of all the weak, the low, the botched; it has made an ideal out of _antagonism_ to all the self-preservative instincts of sound life; it has corrupted even the faculties of those natures that are intellectually most vigorous, by representing the highest intellectual values as sinful, as misleading, as full of temptation. The most lamentable example: the corruption of Pascal, who believed that his intellect had been destroyed by original sin, whereas it was actually destroyed by Christianity!"

I think, based on their greater success, the "1%" represents Nietzsche's "higher type of man". I think the "99%" are waging a popular movement based on a recurring and detrimental idea that it is better to be inferior.

A|P
"I rebel -- therefore we exist." - Camus

Asmodean

Well, hello!

You stole my initials.  :P

(No. I actually have nothing constructive to say at all)
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Tank

Hi

Moved to Philosophy as we don't have arguments in the introduction fora.

Welcome back.

Regards
Chris
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Crow

Don't think there is really anything to argue with here.

The concept of Nietzsche's Übermensch was that they were the 1% and that humanity should strive to be more like the 1% rather than the 99%.
Retired member.

Recusant

Hello and welcome back, A|P. It's good to see you here again.

As far as being in the top 1% of wealth goes, I don't see that it makes a person of a "higher type" in any way. Especially when one considers that a good number of these people inherited their wealth. Is Donald Trump a "higher type"? To me this seems to tie into the "wealth equals virtue" ideas espoused by Calvinists, rather than Nietzschean thought.

The OWS folks seem to be questioning the undue influence that the "1%" has on the making of laws and regulations (or lack of them) in their favor. I guess that if one thinks that having (a lot) more money means that these people are of a "higher type," then one would also be happy with them being able to have more influence on laws than the rest of us.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


AlP

#5
Quote from: Recusant on November 28, 2011, 12:57:58 PM
Hello and welcome back, A|P. It's good to see you here again.

As far as being in the top 1% of wealth goes, I don't see that it makes a person of a "higher type" in any way. Especially when one considers that a good number of these people inherited their wealth. Is Donald Trump a "higher type"? To me this seems to tie into the "wealth equals virtue" ideas espoused by Calvinists, rather than Nietzschean thought.

The OWS folks seem to be questioning the undue influence that the "1%" has on the making of laws and regulations (or lack of them) in their favor. I guess that if one thinks that having (a lot) more money means that these people are of a "higher type," then one would also be happy with them being able to have more influence on laws than the rest of us.

Yes I think that's it. Wealth and merit are not necessarily the same thing.

Though I don't agree with this, I think that Nietzsche thought that what should be striven for is power. I think it could be argued that wealth and power have a lot in common.

I wonder what Nietzsche would have thought of the use of wealth to exert influence on politics today. Mencken thought that Nietzsche's ideal society was a plutocracy, can't find the quote.

Tank, sorry about that, been a while :)

Edit: I'm being an idiot. Mencken discusses Nietzsche's views on plutocracy in the introduction to the very translation I posted a link to.

"In the present case my money is laid upon the plutocracy. It will win because it will be able, in the long run, to enlist the finer intelligences. The mob and its maudlin causes attract only sentimentalists and scoundrels, chiefly the latter."
"I rebel -- therefore we exist." - Camus

Tank

Quote from: AlP on November 28, 2011, 06:19:50 PM
{snip}

Tank, sorry about that, been a while :)
Not a problem, it's what I'm here for  ;D
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Recusant

#7
Quote from: AlP on November 28, 2011, 06:19:50 PMMencken thought that Nietzsche's ideal society was a plutocracy, can't find the quote.

I don't think that's an accurate representation of Mencken's thoughts, nor of Nietzsche's.

Quote from: AlP on November 28, 2011, 06:19:50 PMMencken discusses Nietzsche's views on plutocracy in the introduction to the very translation I posted a link to.

"In the present case my money is laid upon the plutocracy. It will win because it will be able, in the long run, to enlist the finer intelligences. The mob and its maudlin causes attract only sentimentalists and scoundrels, chiefly the latter."

Hmm, in that same introduction, Mencken says that Nietzsche argued for ". . .the extermination of false aristocracies (of the priest, of the politician, of the plutocrat)."

I would not argue with Mencken's opinion that the "great body of ignorant and credulous men" amounts to 95 or 96 per cent of the general populace, but I don't think wealth does anything to remove people from his judgment. In other words, I consider it likely that 95 or 96 per cent of the wealthy are as ignorant and credulous as the rest of society; I've known a decent number of wealthy individuals in my life, and I don't think Mencken's opinion of the mass of humanity is any less applicable to them.

He may have believed that the plutocracy would triumph in the end, but that doesn't mean that he considered wealthy power brokers to be of a "higher type."

Quote from: Mencken, in his introduction to 'The Antichrist' But this combat between proletariat and plutocracy is, after all, itself a civil war. Two inferiorities struggle for the privilege of polluting the world. What actual difference does it make to a civilized man, when there is a steel strike, whether the workmen win or the mill-owners win?

Mencken put his money on the plutocrats only through because, as your quote shows, he believed that they will be able to enlist more of the 4 or 5 per cent who comprise the knowledgeable and skeptical than the proletariat will, and certainly not because he considered plutocrats to be that 4 or 5 percent.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


xSilverPhinx

Welcome back!

Hmm...I have read the Antichrist before...feel like reading it again.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Crow

I haven't really been following the whole 99% movement but just read up on it. If you are referring to Nietzsche's concept of the Übermensch to be the traits of the 1% of this movement then I would strongly disagree. The concept is strongly associated with the removal of god from society and values that must arise to combat nihilism from prevailing and combat Platonic idealism. It is one of the main aspect of his book 'Thus Spoke Zarathustra' where he puts forth that Christianity deemed human life as sin therefore detrimental to society. Nietzsche argued it was the duty of the Übermensch to lead by example and show that life is amazing with creativity being regarded as one of the highest human traits, individualism that isn't detrimental to society as the core personality trait, and they are aspirational and self-reliant. He saw it as a goal for humanity to aim towards and positive in nature.
Retired member.

AlP

#10
Perhaps this is reasonable then. I think it is a generalization to condemn the "1%" for their wealth. Some of them are remarkable, and they got there through a combination of things, and not just luck. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet come to mind. Others, not so much.

"Occupy Wall Street is leaderless resistance movement with people of many colors, genders and political persuasions. The one thing we all have in common is that We Are The 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%. We are using the revolutionary Arab Spring tactic to achieve our ends and encourage the use of nonviolence to maximize the safety of all participants."

I am sympathetic with some of their complaints. I think the OWS movement would do themselves a favor by not making this sweeping generalization though and not characterizing themselves as the lower rank. They might even find some support in the "1%".

My original idea from the OP was: I think the "99%" are waging a popular movement based on a recurring and detrimental idea that it is better to be inferior.

I'll change the above statement to: the OWS is a popular movement founded on a recurring and detrimental idea that it is better to be among the least wealthy 99%.

Complaints?

A|P :)
"I rebel -- therefore we exist." - Camus

Recusant

I don't see the OWS people making a point that it's better to be among the least wealthy 99%. To me it seems that they are protesting against the triumph of the plutocracy which Mencken predicted, and which can be observed in the marked increase in disparity between the wealthiest 1% and the rest of the population that began during the Reagan presidency.



Chart from Mother Jones
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Jose AR

Hi
I think that the only thing in common with the 1% of Nietzsche's "awake" and the 1% of the wealthiest is the number 1. They are different things. To be awakened, to have your consciousness raised, to see reality, is like a switch. You are a dumb ass atheist, then you read Dawkins and you suddenly are awake: "hey, religion does have to prove its claims" (there is no magisteria).

To be wealthy is a just accumulation. The poor man is just a wealthy man with less money. Sure he's healthier and probably better educated (Sir Alan Sugar?). The rich need to think they are different, even better. The only real difference is they have more money. Its a tautology. We define the wealthy 1% as those who have 99% of the wealth.

But Nietzsche's uberman had to work. The world and its systems and ideas needed to be challenged, concepts tested and rejected. New ideas sought, new experiences, even mystical ones tried. But the system grinds us out of schools, churches and families ready to submit, to lay down our dreams and accept our long commute, bland entertainment, and rote conversations. Step out of line and you are branded: a loner, weirdo, contrarian, misfit, reject, and atheist. I don't think uberman is 'superman' but 'seeoverman'. He sees past the church and vocational university, past the lives of routine and rules, and he sees life as it is. Dirty, painful, beautiful, animal, sublime. 

Jose AR