WWJD? Kill sick gay people, evidently.

[Typist]

Hi again Pinko,

Ok, a new idea!  How about we be honest, and drop all pretense of talking about a real subject, so we can focus on doing what we really want to do.    I'll go first, and then you join in, ok?

Ok, here we go...

You, you, why you, sputter, you Pinkocommie you!   Ha!  Take that!

Ok, your turn.

Ready, go!

[pinkocommie]

Hi again Pinko,

Ok, a new idea!  How about we be honest, and drop all pretense of talking about a real subject, so we can focus on doing what we really want to do.    I'll go first, and then you join in, ok?

Ok, here we go...

You, you, why you, sputter, you Pinkocommie you!   Ha!  Take that!

Ok, your turn.

Ready, go!

Aww, looks like lonely troll is lonely.  

[Typist]

Aww, looks like lonely troll is lonely.   :-)   Do we have Sense Deficit Syndrome???   Pathetic Posing Disease?    Snotty Potty Mouth Morbidity??

You can't passive aggressively insult someone and then act like you're the victim of unfounded aggression.  Well, I suppose you can, but that would be, dare I say, intellectually dishonest.  

I'm not a victim of anything or anybody, in regards to Net forums.  Well, sometimes I'm the victim of myself, gotta admit to that.

And now, time for a word from our sponsors...

[Kylyssa]

Kylyssa, what I'm trying to say is...

My sense from reading this thread, and many other similar ones on atheist forums, is that the only reason many are interested in stories like this at all is because it involves theists in the role of bad guy.

The concern for gays rings hollow here, because I'm pretty sure if it was anybody but theists involved, we wouldn't be talking about it.

To the degree you are actually concerned about gays, I share your concern.  Half my family is gay.  To the degree you are looking for yet another way to hate theists, I am uncomfortable, as it reminds me too much of how folks rationalize hating gays.

Suppose gays were running a government and proposing killing theists.  Would you still be outraged?    Would this thread still be popping?   Personally, my guess is no.

So my concern for homosexual people rings hollow?  When I've taken in about a dozen homeless homosexual teens and young adults into my home - my concern for homosexuals is just a ploy?  They were all but one theists.  I cared for them as people.  I took them in because no one else would.  I took them in because they were frightened, suffering human beings in need and there's a powerful injustice to parents discarding their children just because of their sexual orientation, a thing beyond their control.

My concern for homosexuals rings hollow?  When I've worked with homeless homosexuals most of my adult life and when I've been an activist for gay rights?

And yes, I'd be just as fucking outraged, horrified and disgusted if a gay run country was rounding up theists to kill.

I also took in other homeless teens.  One of them was homeless because he became a Christian.  His parents were Muslim and disowned him for converting.  I took in Pagan kids whose parents disowned them for converting from Christianity.

But here's the big bit, one you will scream and plug your ears to deny and hate me for saying - the homeless homosexual teens and young adults I took in, the homeless converted to Christian teen, the Pagan homeless teens, and the girl whose parents suspected of having pre-marital sex all lost their homes due to their parents religious beliefs.  Here.  In America.

I don't hate theists in general - those kids were, as I said, all but one theists and I took them in, accepted them and gave them love.  I even arranged for some of them to go to church, either paying their bus fare, driving them when I had a car, or arranging for them to get rides.  My partner is a fluctuating agnostic/deist/theist and I love him to bits.  My roommate is Catholic and I love her dearly.  All but one of my friends irl are either theists (the vast majority) or deists.  Only one friend (actually more of an acquaintance, he's my partner's producer) irl is an atheist.

[Kylyssa]

The concern for gays rings hollow here, because I'm pretty sure if it was anybody but theists involved, we wouldn't be talking about it.

Have you ever considered that the overwhelming and vast majority of vicious, anti-gay legislation and activity is religiously inspired?  The percentage of non-theists that actively hate homosexuals like that is extremely tiny.  

Most hate groups such as the Westboro Baptist Church, the KKK, white supremacist groups, etc are religion based.  

Did you happen to notice that some churches hate gays so much that they are almost bankrupting themselves to fight equal marriage?  

A homophobic atheist is even more rare to find than a gay Republican.  A homophobic atheist is even more rare to find than an atheist Republican.  We don't have any holy books telling us that certain people are an abomination and must die.  That's where people get that idea - from their religion.

[Typist]

Kylyssa, you're making my points better than I can, so I'll leave you to it.

[Kylyssa]

Kylyssa, you're making my points better than I can, so I'll leave you to it.

Religious beliefs cause the vast majority of homophobia.  It is a fact.  Otherwise - point to the homophobic atheist groups you know.  You keep pretending that question isn't being asked.  Why not just admit that the vast majority of anti-gay groups are based on Abrahamic religions whose holy books require the death of homosexuals?  

I hate homophobia.  I hate people who kill and harm people whatever the reason - and so should you.  But you don't.  You waste your breath hating atheists that hate religious violence.  

I'm making your point that atheists only talk about murders and violence against homosexuals by Christian groups because they want to speak badly of Christians?  Obviously spending half my life taking in homeless homosexual kids was a giant setup just so I could post mean things about Christians in Happy Atheist Forum.  I care about violence against homosexuals because I'm human.  The only reason a person wouldn't care about violence against other human beings is because they've been conditioned not to.

So my desire to prevent kids from dying on the street or getting ass-raped again is motivated by hatred of Christians?  Then please explain why most of them were Christians that I took to their Christian churches when they desired?  

Go talk to your half homosexual family and ask them if anyone has ever brought up the Bible to them.  Ask if they would feel comfortable in Westboro Baptist Church or in a fundamentalist Christian church.  Ask them if they think it's wrong to protest the anti-homosexual legislation in Uganda because it's mean to Christians to do so.

[Typist]

Actually, most of the gay members of our family here are pretty religious.   One of them attends Catholic mass every day, for decades.   My apologies that they don't fit your stereotypes.  

Religious beliefs cause the vast majority of homophobia.

Right, I understand your point.   You're made it well and repeatedly.   Apologies, but you are simply wrong.  

Fear of sex, and the need to find a group to hate and be superior to, are the drivers.   This is a human problem, not a theist problem specifically.  Yes, many theists are involved in this, because they are the largest group of people on the planet.  

Here's a suggestion of how we might come together.

If we're going to hate a group, let's hate people who do violence to others.  And let's hate them because of their violent action, not because of their race, gender, nationality, religion or non-religion etc.

If you wish to conduct a holy war against Ugandan law makers on that basis, I'll join, and salute your leadership.

[Kylyssa]

Actually, most of the gay members of our family here are pretty religious.   One of them attends Catholic mass every day, for decades.   My apologies that they don't fit your stereotypes.  

Where did I say that homosexuals aren't religious?  Read the above posts and you'll see where I described all but one of the kids I took in as theists (and he wasn't homosexual) and spoke of taking some of them to church.

So your gay family members are completely unafraid of Christian fundamentalists such as people in the Westboro Baptist Church?  They'd be completely comfortable being out in a young earth creationist church in the South, right?

[Typist]

Go talk to your half homosexual family and ask them if anyone has ever brought up the Bible to them.

To which my answer was yes.  By the way, we live in the south.  

You want to hate theists (no matter how you want to spin it).  You have a right to do this.  I'm declining to join you, that's all.

I will join you in hating violent people, and offered that above, but you walked on by the invite.

Because it's not violence that is really bothering you, but theism.

[Kylyssa]

Religious beliefs cause the vast majority of homophobia.

Right, I understand your point.   You're made it well and repeatedly.   Apologies, but you are simply wrong.  

Fear of sex, and the need to find a group to hate and be superior to, are the drivers.   This is a human problem, not a theist problem specifically.  Yes, many theists are involved in this, because they are the largest group of people on the planet.  

So you are saying that the fact that the Bible, the Torah and the Koran all contain statements condemning homosexuality has no impact on people becoming homophobic?  You are saying that pastors, priests, and Imams that preach against homosexuality have nothing to do with homophobia?

Theists are involved in it out of proportion to their number in the population.  They also quote from the homophobic statements in the Bible to support their anti-gay stance.

No, homophobia is not the natural human state and neither is fear of sex.  

Again, name the atheist run anti-gay hate groups you know of.

Most people are religious but most people aren't homophobic but most homophobic people are religious out of proportion to their percentage in the general population.  Let me try to explain this - if one in ten people are atheists, then shouldn't one in ten homophobes be atheists if your thesis that homophobia is condition of being human rather than of being a member of a religion that condemns homosexuality?

One in ten homophobes are not atheists.  One in ten homophobes aren't Pagans or Buddhists, either.    That's because they have no anti-homosexual teachings.

[Kylyssa]

Go talk to your half homosexual family and ask them if anyone has ever brought up the Bible to them.

To which my answer was yes.  By the way, we live in the south.  

You want to hate theists (no matter how you want to spin it).  You have a right to do this.  I'm declining to join you, that's all.

I will join you in hating violent people, and offered that above, but you walked on by the invite.

Because it's not violence that is really bothering you, but theism.

I hate theistic violence.  You deny its existence.  That is what's upsetting.  Your religious book calls for anti-homosexual violence and people do it - and you and others like you pretend that the calls in religious books to kill homosexuals don't exist.  You deny the existence of Christian inspired violence.

It's violence that bothers me.  And it's so damned frustrating that the violence could be ended if the people who were doing it for their God would just stop believing in that God.  They could just stop doing what this fantasy book tells them to do and the people they are hurting - they would have no reason to hurt them anymore.

The people in Uganda are trying to kill homosexuals because their religious beliefs say it's right to kill homosexuals - if they'd stop having that belief, they wouldn't want to kill homosexuals anymore.

Why don't you understand why people despise a belief that asks someone to hurt someone else?  Your Bible supports anti-homosexual acts.  These people follow that belief.

[Typist]

Ok, let's return to the top, and reread the article that has launched your holy war.

The Washington Post wrote:KAMPALA, UGANDA -- A Ugandan lawmaker refused Friday to withdraw proposed legislation that would impose the death penalty for some gay men and lesbians despite international condemnation and presidential opposition to a measure that some critics said could scare off foreign investors.

A single lawmaker has proposed an idiot law.   Phew, good thing that has never happened here in the U.S!!  

Lawmaker David Bahati said he will not heed a call late Thursday from the government to drop the proposed bill, which has provoked criticism from gay rights groups and protests in London, New York and Washington.

The government of Uganda asked him to drop the bill.

"We have our children in schools to protect against being recruited into" homosexuality, Bahati said. "The process of legislating a law to protect our children against homosexuality and defending our family values must go on." The country's parliament is expected to debate the measure in late February or early March.

The idiot lawmaker makes generalized hysterical statements about all homosexuals, much the way some atheists make generalized hysterical statements about all theists.

Although President Yoweri Museveni has told colleagues that he believes the bill is too harsh and has encouraged his ruling National Resistance Movement Party to overturn the death sentence provision, Information Minister Kabakumba Matsiko said the parliament will act independently.

The President of Uganda is on the record against the bill.

Several lawmakers and officials from the ruling party said this week that they will push to remove the death penalty statute. They have proposed instead that gays receive counseling to convert them to heterosexuality.

Lawmakers in the ruling party wish to replace the death penalty stuff with counseling.  

Lawmakers outlawed gay marriage in 2005.

It's been outlawed here since the beginning of time..

The proposed legislation is being promoted as an update to Uganda's statutes against homosexuality, which date from the 1950s and do not address homosexuality by name, only by what the law terms as "unnatural offenses" and "gross indecency." The draft bill says anyone convicted of a homosexual act could face life imprisonment.

Draft bills say all kinds of things, in every country, on every subject.

Current legislation imposes seven years in prison.

Not so different than what our laws said, not so long ago.

Under the new law, the death sentence could apply to sexually active gays living with HIV or in cases of same-sex rape. The law would also include Ugandans living abroad, who could be extradited and punished.

Under the new law, being proposed by one person in a small country somewhere in the world.

No mention of theists or religion anywhere in the article.

Thus, the above discussion which focused on theism, is shown to be hate based hysteria.

[G-Roll]

Under the new law, being proposed by one person in a small country somewhere in the world.

No mention of theists or religion anywhere in the article.

Thus, the above discussion which focused on theism, is shown to be hate based hysteria.

According to journalist Sharlet, Bahati is a core member of The Family, described by prominent evangelical Christians who is one of the most politically well-connected fundamentalist organizations in the US.

Current legislation imposes seven years in prison.

actually the bill covers "gay sex" with minor children, disabled people, and ect. id rather see someone get 7 years for this as opposed to killing them. well maybe kill the child toucher... nah, lock them up for  longer than 7 years.

It's been outlawed here since the beginning of time..

Lol i must be fighsty today... america wasnt here in the beginning of time. nor was any of these countries... i almost deleted this because i know it makes no difference... but, i like to argue.

[pinkocommie]

Ugandan Pastor, and Rick Warren's right hand man, Martin Ssempa really hates gay people since he's one of the unapologetic driving forces behind the "Kill the Gays" bill.  But he sure seems to love gay porn.

I wrote about his last public showing of porn in January, where he call a press conference to show scatological fetish porn that ended up driving people out of the room and backfired on him. Looks like he hasn't really learned his lesson. After police blocked his Million Man "Kill the Gays" March, Ssempa held another of his special screenings in a Kampala church:

The screening was attended by around 300 supporters crammed into an evangelical church in the Ugandan capital after plans for a 'million-man march' were thwarted by police. 'We had planned to have a million-man and -woman march in Kampala but unfortunately we were told that we could not march because of security concerns," Martin Ssempa told the crowd. 'The major argument homosexuals have is that what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms is nobody's business but do you know what they do in their bedrooms?,' the pastor asked. Ssempa then displayed a slide show of gay pornographic pictures. 'This one is eating another man's penis,' the pastor said, before going into even more graphic descriptions. 'Is this what Obama wants to bring to Africa?' he said, following fierce US criticism of a Ugandan bill drafted last year that would further criminalise homosexuality.

As I covered in previous blogs, Ssempa is a man with deep ties to American Evangelicalism.

He is not only pals with Rick Warren, but also has connections with the secretive political religious group "The Family", whose C Street House has been the focus of controversy after Mark Sanford and John Ensign's extra-marital affairs and who host the National Prayer Breakfast every year.

This is fundamentalism exported directly from our shores. Like "Porno Pete" LaBarbera, he uses a playbook created by the anti-gay forces here in the US: show gay men as depraved, evil, sick perverts who deserve to be imprisoned or put to death.

Andy Towle from Towleroad found a great quote from Kathleen Parker in the Washington Post saying that Warren should be more involved in stifling the dangerous Ugandan situtation. It applies to all of the Evangelical Fundies exporting anti-LGBT hate from our shores:

It may not be Warren's personal calling to comment on 'political process.' But is neutrality really an option for one of the world's most powerful Christian leaders when state genocide of a minority is proposed in the name of Christianity? If we decide that genocide is too political for interference, then what good is moral leadership?...The proposed law is a case study in the unintended consequences of moral colonialism.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

I do wonder, however, if this will start another outpouring of hate mail & comments like my last post on Ssempa did. If so, I think Parker's quote above is the perfect answer to any of them.

Julian Pepe, the leader of gay and lesbian rights group Sexual Minorities Uganda, brought this little bit of hypocrisy on the part of Ssempa to light:

He (Pastor Martin Ssempa) should be arrested because he is promoting pornography. The fact that he showed this film to people below 18 years means he has committed a crime.

That's quite the moral authority, Pastor Ssempa- showing porn to underage kids in church.  Loopholes in the Bill?

This comes on the heels of news from Truth Wins Out that a loophole may allow Uganda to execute anyone 'related' to homosexuals:

  The wording of the legislation allows Uganda to execute anyone found guilty of repeat offences involving homosexuality "or related offences" which include speaking out in defense of tolerance, or being a relative, pastor or doctor of a homosexual and refusing to report that person to the authorities for execution.

http://www.bilerico.com/2010/02/uganda_ ... or_sse.php

I suppose this author and the people quoted in the article don't really care about gay people either, they just hate theists.